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by EA-316714 hours ago |
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upvoteby lukan14 hours ago|
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In hindsight everything is obvious, but it was a close call and there were many moments history could have taken a different route. Sanctions were painful for russia, but so was cutting ties of a lot of industry towards russia in east germany for instance. A bit more cooperation (and maybe less US started wars as a guidance) and all would be quite different.
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upvoteby jmyeet13 hours ago|
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Thing is, it wasn't hindsight. The US had been warning Europe about the dangers of dependency on Russian energy since at least 2016 through 2-3 administrations (see my other comment for the citations).
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upvoteby lukan13 hours ago|
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Yes and europe was warning the US not to engage with Iraq and now Iran in the way the US did.

Also we read the warning as "don't buy from them, rather buy from us".

And it was extensivly debated in general.

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upvoteby EA-316713 hours ago|
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That would be a lot more compelling if we didn’t already know how that story ended. I also think framing this as US-EU competition rather than the EU running its economic engine on cheap Russian fuel is misleading.

The EU kept at it with plans to expand until the war started for the second time and “someone” took it upon themselves to violently sever that link.

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upvoteby lukan13 hours ago|
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Neither the US, nor EU nor russia is a monolithic block. So I try to avoid black and white framing in general. But especially the US warningbefore 2014, when at the same time with surplus fracking gas, not many considered serious. Besides, while everyone was buying from the Saudis and co. So why not russia?

Now at latest by 2014 that should have changed indeed. But even then different approaches would have been possible then cutting all ties and hope this will work out better.

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upvoteby jmyeet13 hours ago|
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This is ahistorical, at least from the POV of US administrations.

I'm no fan of Donald Trump but this was one of his rare Ws. At a NATO summit in 2018, he warned Europe about the dangers of dependency on Russian energy and basically bullied Germany into building an LNG plant, something that was critical to Europe after Russia invaded Ukraine 4 years later [1].

Biden as Vice President to Obama warned Europe of the same thing in 2016 [2] regarding Nord Stream 2.

So American administrations have consistently and repeatedly warned Europe about the dangers over 6+ years. So how can anyone argue that "[Russia would] never start a war in Europe" when the US said basically that?

[1]: https://archive.ph/4K5BP

[2]: https://www.dw.com/en/biden-warns-europe-against-dependency-...

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upvoteby a34729t11 hours ago|
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Yeah both sides of US spectrum told Europe for a decade plus, but when the entire German political class is captured by Russia, what do you even do?
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