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by pier2511 hours ago |
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upvoteby sudonem11 hours ago|
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Even if you never connect the TV to your WiFi network it will constantly scan for public networks and also scan for any devices that will respond. “Off” doesn’t actually mean off anymore. :(
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upvoteby duskwuff11 hours ago|
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Do you have any specific examples of devices where this has been implemented? Because I've heard this idea thrown around a lot as a hypothetical, but never any concrete evidence that it's been done.
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upvoteby _dain_9 hours ago|
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Hypothetical is beside the point. The hardware is there, the software is closed and you can't verify what is really happening, so the potential threat exists.
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upvoteby duskwuff5 hours ago|
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Connecting to open wireless networks is exactly the sort of behavior that would be trivial to confirm the presence of, if it were actually present. You wouldn't even need any unusual tools - just set up an open access point and see if the TV connects to it.
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upvoteby kazinator10 hours ago|
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Why would I care that some device to which I never gave a shred of my personal information of any kind (e.g. not logging it into any online account) found an open public network that I don't use and that has no connection to me?

Sure, I would be disturbed that it's doing that sort of thing in spite of Wi-Fi being explicitly turned off.

What is the threat to me though?

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upvoteby __MatrixMan__8 hours ago|
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Because it's acting with your IP address, so attempts to prevent whatever shady botnet things it gets up to may also interfere with legitimate use by humans on your network.
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upvoteby x3n0ph3n310 hours ago|
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It can record audio, sometimes video, and fingerprint what you watch on it. Proximity can be enough to identify you.
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upvoteby mmooss8 hours ago|
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They have your location, and can detect your interests from what you watch, and fingerprint you. Things like this are pieces of a larger, comprehensive picture of your life.

Also, how do you pay for streaming channels, etc., if you don't give it any information?

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upvoteby kazinator7 hours ago|
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The assumption here is that we don't give the TV any personal information; it's just used as a monitor. The content comes from some other device connected to an input (e.g. HDMI1). (That device may raise privacy issues, but we are concerned with the TV).

Without either doing the fingerprinting from surreptitious audio recording in the room that other commenters mention, or else matching the unit serial number to the purchaser (requiring the retailer to leak personal info to the manufacturer), they can't match the unit's location to our identity.

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upvoteby mmooss6 hours ago|
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I see. Roku, for example, takes screenshots of the TV N times per second (and sends them home).

Remember that it doesn't take much to identify someone: Gender, birthdate, and (zip code?) uniquely identify ~80% of Americans. From viewing habits, it should be easy to fingerprint someone - Chicago Bears fan; strong technology interest; on your city block; likes AI porn with Lara Croft; home during day Sa, Su, Tu, Th; watches YouTube videos about ...

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upvoteby 7 hours ago|
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upvoteby kortilla8 hours ago|
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Samsung TVs were literally recording people with microphones and doing voice recognition. Unless you don’t speak in your home, it will have you identified quite quickly.
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upvoteby kazinator7 hours ago|
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If we want privacy, should we be buying a TV which has these peripherals? I don't think a TV should have such things, so I would sooner rip out or damage the microphone and camera if I had to get such a TV. The ability to connect to a network could be useful; I'd not mess with it.
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upvoteby mcv4 hours ago|
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Is that even legal? It shouldn't be.
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upvoteby lowbloodsugar10 hours ago|
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Because the TV is recording your voice, what you watch and possibly taking pictures, depending on the brand, and it needs a connection to send that information to whoever will pay for it.
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upvoteby arcanemachiner11 hours ago|
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So your idiot brother doesn't connect your spy TV to the WiFi when he comes to visit, instead of using the goddamn Chromecast that is already plugged into it. >:(
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upvoteby dreamcompiler8 hours ago|
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This. I've had this happen with relatives who come to visit. It's unkind to tell them "Don't fuck with the TV" or "Ignore the TV if it tells you it wants to connect to something."

They want to be "helpful" and show me they can "work tech" by doing stuff like this. They don't understand that the TV is manipulating them. I don't want to have to explain to them that I'm basically a neurosurgeon and they just tried to impress me by drilling a hole in somebody's head. Because the TV told them to.

Disconnecting the wifi avoids the need for unpleasant conversations.

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upvoteby encrypted_bird10 hours ago|
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This seems very specific.............you wanna talk about it? /hug-offer
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upvoteby sparky_z9 hours ago|
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Dogsitter in my case.
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upvoteby mmooss8 hours ago|
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Happened to elderly relatives. I had it set up so nicely and someone 'helped', and then it seems rude to disconnect what they did.
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upvoteby Tyr4210 hours ago|
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Yours too? Dang.
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upvoteby MiscCompFacts11 hours ago|
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I’ve heard the TV’s will try to connect to any passwordless, public access point it can reach even without your approval.
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upvoteby duskwuff10 hours ago|
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While I've certainly heard plenty of theorizing about the possibility of this happening, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that it has ever been done.

EDIT: What I am referring to here is the specific allegation that smart TVs will connect to open wireless networks without being commanded to do so. It's not a catch-all for any nefarious thing involving TVs or wireless networks.

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upvoteby Larrikin10 hours ago|
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It's been confirmed in the recent LG scandal.
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upvoteby gnabgib10 hours ago|
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The denied ones that have yet to be proven?

LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true' (635 points, 2 months ago, 494 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49645480

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upvoteby duskwuff10 hours ago|
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And that isn't even the same thing either! (This seems to be a recurring theme.) If it were true that LG TVs "spy" on ambient audio, that would certainly be bad, but it wouldn't also establish that the TVs were connecting to open wireless networks to exfiltrate that data.
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upvoteby LoganDark9 hours ago|
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LG scans the list of nearby networks. It does not automatically connect to any.
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upvoteby fhub2 hours ago|
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You still run the risk of a software update doing a tv to tv mesh network. You gotta own the software or remove the radio.
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upvoteby Geezus_4210 hours ago|
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How many open WiFi networks are there within range of your TV?
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upvoteby SoftTalker10 hours ago|
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Comcast runs a separate "Xfinity WiFi" on all their routers, any Comcast user can connect to it with their credentials. Would they strike a deal with TV manufacturers to let them use it? It would not surprise me.
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upvoteby abeyer9 hours ago|
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Pretty sure this is a known offering from Comcast, you just have to talk to the right sales rep... I haven't yet seen any evidence of a TV using it (yet), but hve been told they will sell a company IoT or fleet device access to their wifi endpoints for enough money. I'm not sure it would be cost effective for mass market device surveillance, though.

Also Amazon does this same model with their Sidewalk service, which can run over bluetooth or lora, instead of wifi... and is specifically priced to be usable for large numbers of devices.

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upvoteby bethekidyouwant10 hours ago|
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It would however surprise many.
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upvoteby 11 hours ago|
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upvoteby OtomotO11 hours ago|
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I guess for people living in cities where different neighbours move in and out and have open WiFis.

If the devices still scan all the time...

Living on the countryside there is no such problem.

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upvoteby Geezus_4210 hours ago|
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Even ISP routers come with a default password now. I can't remember the last time I found an actual open WiFi.
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upvoteby olyjohn10 hours ago|
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All the TV manufacturers have to do is make a deal with Xfinity to jump on their AP, and you're toast. I don't know why anybody would defend them or give them any bit of slack on this. Once they figure this out, they will do it.
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