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This is not even a viable option these days: secondary processors, the potential for a backchannel to some installed app on a device in the home (this has not made headlines, but it’s possible), tying an account to the device proactively.. The TV industry really ran to collect “their” data
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Though he didn't connect any network.
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There is a rumor that some connect to any open wifi, although I'm unsure how true that actually ist.

Also see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25275350

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Some IoT providers' h/w products use globally viable sim cards that can connect to supporting networks. It doesn't have to be "open wifi" since a lot of IoT is for movable objects that are shipped around.
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Don't give them ideas
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To put a finer point on it: these are ideas they had long ago and already ran with…
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And I think there’s Ethernet over HDMI to consider too.
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That was never implemented in any devices and is now a vestigal limb of the HDMI spec.
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> PS: Yesterday I opened the case and disconnected WiFi antenna. Just in case.

While this couldn't hurt, it also won't stop the TV from being able to connect to wifi. I ran my desktop without an antenna attached for months. The speed noticeably improved when I attached an antenna but it was fine for browsing the web and downloading software updates without one.

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Better to replace the wifi antenna with a dummy load.
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OP means that some WiFi antennae are soldered to the motherboard and cannot be easily removed.

When building my PC, I got a PCI WiFi card but it turns out there was also a direct WiFi network interface built into the motherboard somehow

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They would be traces with pretty obvious patterns and easy to cut.

But I don't the GP comment was talking about that; I have also used WiFi without an antenna (PCB or otherwise), and it was also slow for me.

A dummy load is probably the best idea: an impedance mismatch would obliterate any chance of anything working (including Bluetooth fwiw).

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The point of a dummy load is to match the impedance so that all the radiative energy gets turned into heat and the transmitter is none the wiser.
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Wouldn't reflections be worse (genuinely asking)?
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No. Reflections happen with unmatched impedance.
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RF wireless always needs an antenna somewhere - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50333679

If you know what you are doing and have explicitly disconnected/cut all antennas including entire MIMO arrays (many people miss one or more antennas) in the motherboard then the only remaining explanation is "accidental antennas".

This is only possible if the WiFi-chip has dangling metal pins/traces/joints whose length is comparable to that of its wavelength, in which case these will act as makeshift antennas. These will pickup ambient WiFi RF, but for this to work at all you need lots of RF power i.e. a very strong signal strength which means you have to be very close to the WiFi router.

The whole thing works because of Physics and not Engineering (the "accidental" part) and hence very iffy (may not work at all) and should not be relied upon.

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Just wrap it in tinfoil like the cool kids
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You didn’t explain your point. How does a tv connect to WiFi without a WiFI antena
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You don't need an antenna. You can think of an antenna as simply being a signal booster.

That being said, without an antenna it is highly improbable that it could still find an open WiFi AP to connect to (especially if you don't have one in your house).

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I would imagine the antenna just strengthens the incoming signal. You could still get reception/communication if the gateway/router/modem was near enough and not a lot of electrical shit attached (I would imagine that would generate more noise that could interfere)?

As an example - if you have a motherboard on your computer that supports wifi and comes with a port/plug for an antenna, you could remove that antenna and still receive a signal (IDK about sending) but it would suffer more signal loss due to the lack of antenna.

All that is just a guess of course. People more knowledgeable than me could explain/clarify.

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>How does a tv connect to WiFi without a WiFI antena

Exactly the same way their PC did; re-read what they said.

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Valid question.

I am not the person you asked the question of, but here is the answer;

Smart TVs have a built-in "WiFi-Chip" on the motherboard and its antenna hidden in the TV frame itself, exactly like the antennas in a Smartphone. The different radios on a Smart TV viz. OTA, WiFi, Bluetooth, Satellite, Zigbee etc. all operate at different frequency ranges and hence need their own antennas. Many of these antennas are either a) etched on the motherboard b) hidden within the plastic back frame or c) directly taped to it.

Axiom of RF Wireless - There can be no transmission/reception without an antenna either external or internal.

PS: Since RF Wireless is everywhere today and most people do not have much of an idea of this technology, i very highly recommend the book The Essential Guide to RF and Wireless by Carl Weisman for study. Expressly written for a non-technical audience, it explains everything simply and beautifully. It really gave me the invaluable overview and the grounding i needed to understand this important science/technology.

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The last TV I bought was a Kogan, and at first power up, or after a factory reset, it let you select where you wanted it to be a dumb screen with inputs only, or run the Google TV OS.

Did the TCL not have this option?

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This'll be something only relevant to Australians, but it's amusing to see you reply to Ruslan to tell him about your Kogan!
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> Kogan TVs are produced by Kogan.com, an Australian company founded by Ruslan Kogan in 2006.

That's not me for sure. :) But what I'm sure about it that their TVs are made either by Haier or TCL.

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Hah! The odds of that feel extraordinarily small. This Australian is amused, at least.
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This is somewhat an option. I have this TV too and when you set it up, you can choose to have it be a dumb tv, and even avoid Google TV if you want. In the US.
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Mine did not have that option. There was some "demo" mode though, but it was useless.
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Our TCL has this option, but there are multiple buttons on the remote that open youtube or ask zuck to club baby seal to death or whatever, and if you press those (i.e., sit on the remote), it goes into a labyrinth of google bullshit that complains about how you are missing important notifications and need to debug your wifi.

F--- Google, but at least the kids know those menus are bullshit, and do not have the wifi password at any rate.

Also, we're probably already to the point where I could just put it on a firewalled network, and have a [chinese open weight] LLM pop the factory android, get root, and reprogram the remote buttons to no-ops.

Or, I could open the remote up, physically cut out the spam buttons, then 3d print an alternative top-half of the shell without holes for them.

So many options, so much enshitification.

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Can disable those annoying buttons (or even make them do something useful for you) with Button Mapper.
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IIRC if I do this on my Bravia I also lose the image enhancements.
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You mean you turn off slopping up your image? The kind of person who wants a dumb TV probably wants any "enhancements" off too.
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At least on our TCL (which has an array of thousands of back lights) some of the unhance options actually need to be turned on.

We bought it because it has crazy high brightness (it is in a bright room with direct sunlight hitting the panel while we are watching it), and while it can beat back the sun, it cannot do so by just turning all the zones on 100% because it would melt or something.

So, if all the image slopping were turned off, the contrast ratio would drop 100x, and the TV wouldn't really be fit for purpose.

(For when the sun is not actively trying to kill the panel, I have a de-slop shortcut setup. That also has the backlight enhance stuff turned on -- as low as possible -- to get true black on the LCD. It works OK. OLED is not quite there yet for this corner case.)

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This kind of trade-off is often a dark pattern used when forced to offer a feature by regulators or by competitors offering it. The evil trick is complying with the regs or being able to advertise the feature but making it so unattractive users won't activate it, enabling the manufacturer to still earn that sweet $35-$60 / yr from advertising, app install payments, rev share and selling your viewing data.

> the image enhancements.

Having spent a couple decades working in and around digital video production tooling and engineering, as well as being a filmmaker and home theater enthusiast, it's worth mentioning that today almost all television image enhancement features are net negative, even if they make the image subjectively 'pop' or motion appear smoother on typical scenes, they'll introduce artifacts or trade-offs in other kinds of scenes.

In my experience doing a lot of testing over the years with objective signal analysis tools at work as well as subjectively across 7 generations of upgrades in my own home theater, the trade-offs aren't worth it. There are a few context and content specific exceptions but they're quite rare and usually involve slightly improving significantly degraded signals which no longer exist in most home theaters (eg noise reduction in analog sources like laserdisc, DCT macro-block smoothing in highly compressed old MPEG 1/2 sources or dynamic range expansion on legacy SD sources).

With today's 4K and HD digital sources encoded at high bit rates in modern codecs, the director, colorist and mastering engineer can finally deliver their precise intent all the way to your eyeballs. The ~$20 chip calculating synthetic frames and pixels in your TV introduces surface curb appeal at the cost of artifacts and a poorly integrated image. If it actually made the image look better, the director and colorist have more and better tools than that $20 chip that they're already applying to the source. You're just turning a $20 chip loose on 'full auto' to guess at (and often undo or muddy) intentional enhancements manually applied frame by frame over days by experts.

Do whatever you like but I encourage you to critically audition each of those enhancements across a range of source types (4K, HD, HDR, HDR10, SDR, 24, 30, and 60 frame) and diverse scenes (low-light, quick panning, smooth dollies, and synthetic test signals, etc). Once you compare the before/after across that breadth back-to-back you'll see what I mean. I run my calibrated, high-end 3-laser projector (150" screen) as close to neutral, native settings as I can get and it looks sensational. And to be clear I'm not being a purist, if 'enhancements' really improved some scenes meaningfully without degrading other scenes, I'd be "Fuck the director's intent, it's just better." But for every scene an enhancement improves, I can queue up a scene from another film it makes noticeably worse. Fortunately, on most high-end Sony TVs you can get an un-hyped, accurate image in the standard UX without going to the calibrator or factory menus.

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> Having spent a couple decades working in and around digital video production tooling and engineering, as well as being a filmmaker and home theater enthusiast, it's worth mentioning that today almost all television image enhancement features are net negative

Yep, generally you don't want anything the TV manufacturer markets as "enhancements." They basically all add things to the signal that were not part of the director's or video editor's vision. Any cinephile will remind you that there is one correct setting for "brightness," "contrast," "color," and "tint". "Sharpness" should almost always be zero, and any other setting that claims to "enhance" the picture should be turned off for correct output.

The worst ones now are the "motion smoothing" modes that take your normal FPS movie and try to interpolate them up to 60FPS, 120FPS or even 240FPS, giving them that cheap, crappy "soap opera" effect. Turn it off as soon as you turn on your TV for the first time.

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While this is generally true, there are some notorious cases where the director's intent was terrible, and the image definitely needs more contrast and brightness to see what's going on.
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Mostly agreed. However, I find the motion smoothing works nice on my 30fps video games.
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>motion smoothing works nice on my 30fps video games.

Of course a modern console only managing 30fps is the actual 'bug' :-). But I agree that's one of the narrow exception cases where an 'enhancement' might be a net benefit. Although if you're going to use synthetic frames, doing it in the console can be better because intra-frame motion hinting might be available and, even if it's not, the console's frame gen is trained on game content where a TV's chip is cross-function and far less capable (both in look-ahead and motion vector count). But I know some consoles don't have frame gen, so in that case it's a win.

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1) Would you consider publishing which apps you removed? (A wiki on making smart devices dumb - cars, TVs, refrigerators, tractors ... - would be useful, though I'm not suggesting you make and manage it yourself.)

2) Why bother removing the apps if it has no network connection? Defense in depth is sensible to me, but maybe there's something else I'm missing ...

3) Why not buy a large desktop computer monitor, or are those no longer 'dumb' either?

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Not the person you are responding to but:

1) All the google data gathering crap, and all the "give permission to garbage preload to turn on the microphone" bullshit (and look for a physical mic switch; ours has that. Also, turn off notifications, because, do you want notifications telling you the wifi does not work? If you have an android phone, do this on your phone first.

2) Less crap = less backlog of surveillance data if you ever accidentally need to put it online. Also, see (1).

3) You can't get a nice 55"-100" desktop monitor for < $2K.

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> Yesterday I opened the case and disconnected WiFi antenna. Just in case.

I'm sure it won't be long before these bastards embed a cell phone modem deeply into the device :(

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What a crazy world we live in.

Ppl worry so much about privacy, but are fine having kids watch TV when they eat breakfast.

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I fully share your sentiment, someone buying a tv specifically so the kids don't let their brains rest during a 15 min breakfast seems insane to me. That said I guess better they watch without spyware than with..
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What do you mean? Obviously consuming too much media, or consuming anything too much of it is not good, but how does that negate concerns about inadvertently inviting for-profit corporations to your breakfast and every intimate conversation at home?
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Those are completely unrelated concerns.
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