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Given that the top comment yesterday said “this is insane […] I’m shook” I’d say no, it wasn’t all that obvious to everyone.

As someone who uses LLMs in their coding but doesn’t pay attention to every development this is why I find it all so exhausting. I keep feeling like I need to keep up to date but there’s no point reading incremental updates because everything is so overhyped.

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Reading an article takes more time than commenting, which takes more time than voting. So the typical life cycle of a HN post is that people vote on it without reading the article, comment without reading the article, vote on the comments without reading the article, and respond to comments without reading the article, until after some time people who've actually read the article show up in the comments with some clarifications, saving everyone else the bother of having to read it themselves.

If you want to escape the hype, reading posts with no upvotes and no comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/newest is an option, though somewhat hit-or-miss.

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Gotta get to the IPO, whatever it takes.
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The people who wrote the paper are MIT grad students, not IPOing.
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AI research publishing cycles unfortunately have a similar incentive structure.

Eg. This is not uncommon advice: https://maxwellforbes.com/posts/your-paper-is-an-ad/

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Your resume is an ad as well. Doesn't mean that it is incorrect.
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If you read comments about the paper it's pretty obvious people are misled. People think that the method read in Qwen weights directly to improve it. That's not what it did --- it authored a program to analyse and fix the weights.

What's confusing is they do have experiments that read raw weights, and the abstract is misleadingly written to make it sound like that's how the Qwen experiment works.

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I wouldn't say misled, I would just say they made up their mind about what it means regardless of what the article said. Maybe the title is misleading, but the original article is pretty fair.
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but AI "authors programs" for everything ? Editing or looking at file usually ends up as a bunch of sed scripts running in shell rather than AI agent opening file directly, and that's pretty much the case for every operation
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Not necessarily. Language models can do stuff—well, figure out or determine stuff—purely through inference. Give them the input on their context window and look at the output, no need to generate or run any programs.

You can take it further with a reasoning model and let it generate + consume a bunch of additional tokens before getting your output. Still not writing or running any programs.

To my understanding, that's how the examples of determining which game a small neutral net was trained to play. The weights of the neural net for into the context window, and then Astra was able to analyze them purely by reasoning rather than running external tools.

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Did you really insert emdashes in the first sentence yourself?
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Yes. I've been abusing em-dashes over a decade and like them too much to give them up now :)

They're pretty easy to type on Android keyboards and on macOS (option + shift + -). You can set up a similar compose key thing on Linux.

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> it authored a program to analyse and fix the weights.

This is a difference without much distinction, at least to me. It's like being upset when someone says that Claude made a http call -- of course the LLM didn't make the call itself, it used a tool to do it.

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No it's a huge difference. Someone who can quickly compute 123^456 in his head has a very different skillset to someone who uses a calculator.
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The distinction here is the equivalent of Astra passing the pelican test by prompting an image generation model versus emitting the SVG.

The former will likely produce a much higher quality image, but claiming it as a demonstration of Astra's capabilities would be a lie.

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It obviously is an important distinction to the paper's authors, which is why they used the modifier "native" to mark it as a distinct form of communication than what's already been on the market for years (coding agents). But it's not native, or rather some of the results were native but they mixed toy-scale native results with non-toy-scale non-native results for marketing purposes.

This is like someone telling you they made a "native" brain-to-brain interface but it's just a tin-can phone.

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As someone who has been working in ML for 30+ years, and has designed and trained too many NNs to keep count, this is the first time I've seen anyone twiddling the weights directly. Usually you play with the training set, exemplar weights, model's hyperparameters, etc. I've never seen a trained network being modified by hand.
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Nothing Astra did is even slightly surprising or novel in mechanistic interpretability, which has been a fairly big field for a few years now.
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You are unfamiliar with abliteration?
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There are a 1000 papers published on arXiv in ML every single day. It's hard to keep abreast of everything that's going on in this space.
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ablation is not manual, and comes after evaluating which parts to turn off against given desired result.
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it is manual, just automated via running inferences on a dataset of assumed refusals, and is a small rank-1 weight edit that doesn't require fine-tuning or training. Perf hit is much smaller than baking in these refusals in the first place.
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> who read the original post

I think there's your answer. A hell of a lot of people will often read the title without reading the contents of the article. I admit I'm often guilty of that

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At this moment on the front page (early morning in the US), this post is #1 and the other one is #2, so it's working like a warning about the other one being misleading before clicking on it.
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Yes, I'm glad I waited for this post to arrive before even delving into the topic.
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So you mean that the "The 'Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen' post is misleading" post is misleading? You should post that.
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Yeah. The article is not misleading. The title is, but you know, headlines are all lies that's why you read the article.
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>but you know, headlines are all lies that's why you read the article.

I'm fine with throwing the baby out with the bathwater in that case and just calling the whole article misleading.

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The title is: "LLMs can natively read & write neural network weights"
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The title is part of “The post”.
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Yeah, I was disappointed reading the title of this post because the work it is referencing was very exciting. But after reading this post, it's clear that the author is just pulling an "uhm, ackchyually" and responding to an abstract audience of laymen readers who don't know (or care) about any of the details of these results.

Anybody who actually read the original research site was fully aware of the details of the experiments because it's a well-written research site that made everything very clear. This author is clearly just jumping on the hype as a sort of contrarian where they were frustrated with how much excitement the research was generating and wanted to "correct the record" for the set of people who don't matter in this space.

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You don’t think the authors sort of misrepresented these findings in a way such that they sort of hooked readers in with enticing promises while glossing over major details that demonstrate they are over selling their research….? In this day and age the second I detect that kind of shit I have to discredit the paper and or take it with nothing more than a grain of salt or two. They should be more upfront and clear with what they did from the first paragraph. Instead they made you dive into details to read their stuff only to find out their headline wasn’t exactly telling the full story here.
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The title of their research is "LLMs can natively read & write neural network weights". That's accurate and not sensational at all. People made posts on HN, etc., hamming up these results, but it seems like the actual authors of this research presented it professionally.

>They should be more upfront and clear with what they did from the first paragraph.

Please read the first paragraph and tell me what isn't upfront or clear about it: https://rikiyat.github.io/blog/weight-space-programming

I'd say it's spelled out so clearly that even people who don't understand this stuff could confidentally understand what they're doing here.

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There’s some Dunning-Kruger effect going on. Many are looking to more knowledgeable commentators in hackernews for a digestible eli5 takeaway, myself included as the original article flew over my head.

Unfortunately it’s hard to distinguish who to trust in threads as many commentators sound overly confident and knowledgeable. They think they understand the article and its nuances, but they actually don’t and end up perpetuating false info.

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I strongly recommend avoiding HN for intelligent takes on AI internals. This place is full of people who think they can understand these models by vague analogies to the brain and their own pet (and almost-always underdeveloped and philosophically ignorant) theory of mind, and also that you can have a meaningful understanding of these models without at least knowing some very basic linear algebra.

I would recommend going on Twitter (or a Nitter clone) and looking at e.g. Neel Nanda, Nick Camarata, roon, Jon Stokes, or other researchers that are directly involved in this stuff. HN when AI is involved is full of the most incompetent and embarrassing armchair speculators saying things so incoherent they aren't even wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong.

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LLMs are extremely hyped up right now. It's like when everyone was crypto-crazy, and threads were full of people who had no idea what was going on but were very excited.
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