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In the last couple of months people, with modern tech,

* Built really cool Photo, Video, Music editing/CAD software and released it for free

* Reverse engineered playstation 5 and started making more of our games playable on platforms we like

* Helped normal people remove adware, debloat their TVs and made them lot smoother.

These are just some of the fun use cases from people passionate about the topics I am interested in ... When i was younger, there were different passionate people making different cool things.. demoscene, geocities, reverse engineering software, making flash animations, running neural networks on microcontrollers etc... which was the modern tech back then.

Back then my parents didn't know what a filesystem was. Now my college aged nephews don't know what it is - even though they grew up in the smartphone age.

What I'm saying is ... I feel lot more optimistic about the "modern technology" now than back when i had to walk to a library and request a book about the topics I'm interested in and wait a week to get it ...

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> I feel that modern tech first took away the passion

As soon as something becomes potentially profitable, the MBAs enter the room, and the fun goes away. The more profitable it gets, the more toxic it gets, too.

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As a corollary, I think if something is utterly useless but cool, it's usually worth giving it a second look.

Who, for example, would create a demoscene program or anything like that but for the coolness and the desire to show off?

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These spaces are increasingly being overrun by AI generated slop and pushing out the cool.
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That is somewhat sad but it also increases the value of the genuinely cool.
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I object to your essentialism. Presuming monolithic psychological characteristics, motivations, or behaviors from someone’s academic degree is just as false as presuming them from someone’s skin color, race, sex, gender, occupation, age, or other observable characteristics.

I’m sure you meant no harm, but think you can do better than giving into simplistic base rate fallacy thinking, especially as you are also factually wrong: arguably there isn’t a single big, bad wolf tech company that was started by MBAs. In fact, two of them were started by Harvard college dropouts and one of them by Stanford PhDs. The big tech companies I can think of that were started by MBAs (eBay, grubhub, intuit, Bloomberg) are arguably much less harmful, though two of them became quasi-monopolies.

The problems articulated by the commenter are much more likely the result of institutional failures and skewed cultural incentives than the result of a class of people or a “cabal” (the word implies conspiratorial coordination and scheming).

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> arguably there isn’t a single big, bad wolf tech company that was started by MBAs

The parent commenter didn't say anything about founders, that was your addition.

A reasonable interpretation of the parent comment is that these companies were in fact fun places to work until the MBAs arrived. Personally I don't take offense using MBA as a shorthand for "individuals more focused on profitability than purpose" even though I recognize that doesn't describe everyone with that degree, although admittedly, part of that is because I don't have a better term for it. It's a bit like my own handle; I don't in fact think every corporation is inherently evil, but when I say "anticorporate" there is a common understanding that I'm opposed to many of the shitty behavior of modern corporations, and not that I'm nitpicking that LLCs or sole proprietorships are somehow better forms of legal entity.

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> The problems articulated by the commenter are much more likely the result of institutional failures and skewed cultural incentives than the result of a class of people or a “cabal” (the word implies conspiratorial coordination and scheming).

Oh there absolutely are cabals at work. The infamous "Paypal mafia" [1] where multiple members eventually infiltrated the US government comes to my mind, and Ivy League universities in general are even more infamous for very close knit alumni networks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia

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> Presuming monolithic psychological characteristics, motivations, or behaviors from someone’s academic degree is

You didn't get my point (or you were looking for a way to nitpick). When I said "the MBAs", I did not mean "the human beings in possession of a paper saying that they passed the exam required to say that they have an MBA on their CV". It was a shortcut to design a kind of people who may join at that point.

> I’m sure you meant no harm, but think you can do better than giving into simplistic base rate fallacy thinking

I'm sure you meant no harm, but think you can try to understand the meaning of a message. I try to express an idea with words. What matters is the idea. If you nitpick on the words, you may never get the idea.

> arguably there isn’t a single big, bad wolf tech company that was started by MBAs

Nope, but all of them became as big as they did by becoming the toxic entities they are, for the sake of money and power.

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MBAs are like mold. They appear when the conditions are right.
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[dead]
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+1

There's also another aspect - in the early days, and often times that's what's attractive to contributors - the field might be a total niche that appeals to us nerds. But then, slowly but surely, as it gets taken over by commercial interests, that appeal gets totally lost.

Like, it was fun to dabble in HTML and make your own little website in the mid-90s. Now it's a total drag to do "web development" as your full-time job, staring at Claude Code all day long - YMMV.

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there's an entire community of people making simple websites on places like neocities. You don't find "web development" a drag, you find making a website for some company you don't give a shit about a drag (as you should).
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Nothing to stop you doing simple little websites.
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That is the internet I want to see again: people making their own little websites with questionable design choices about whatever topics they're passionate about. I'm willing to tolerate blink tags and animated gifs for this.
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It’s all still there but you’re going to have to find it just like the “good old days”. No algorithm is going to push it to you, you’re going to have to spend the effort.
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Check out Kagi small web.
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It’s just much harder getting paid for that…
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The point is that it was fun to make it for yourself, about anything you're passionate about. There was never a pay calculation because you did it on your own, because you wanted to.
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there are still tons of people making projects out of passion that are incredible, but you won't find them unless you seek them out, and the best way to do that is to make your own passion project.
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> There is no cabal of evil tech that pushes this, but the results are the same.

I used to think this, I would repeat that old quote "It's not a conspiracy, the truth is more frightening, nobody is in control"

Then comes stuff like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents#:~:text=th...

and

https://www.economist.com/1843/2016/10/20/the-scientists-who...

and

https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/microsoft-plots...

and

https://cybernews.com/cybercrime/meta-fortune-fraudulent-ads...

and

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+inauguration+zuckerburg+musk+trum...

and

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/dem-orders-congressional-probe-eps...

and I'm left thinking well, if none of that covers the definition of evil cabal, then what does? How far can we move these goal posts?

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It depends how large your definition of "cabal" is. There are plenty of corporations who are misaligned with societal positives, consisting of people individually acting in the interest of the corporation as part of their day jobs. When your job's long term success requires helping your company get an edge over the competition and you're willing to be expedient with long term thinking, in aggregate bad things can happen.
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It's something of a mix of both - the world is a web of cabals executing conspiracies but simultaneously most people are so bad at systems thinking that they can't identify the conspiracies from people acting individually in their own interests.

For example, in this instance the fall of the web to commercial interests is more or less inevitable if you look at the basics, regardless of conspiracies (people getting paid produce more & better quality stuff than people making a hobby of it). But if you look at the execution of that dynamic there are always going to be small highly motivated groups of people trying to achieve specific goals on the sly.

It is unusual for any individual cabal to be powerful enough to control a situation.

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It's still not a conspiracy. Those are all local responses to incentives. The incentive structure, the system, is what determines the outcome, not the players.

In a basketball game who wins may vary but you know balls will go through hoops because that's what the rule set of the game incentivizes.

Investors want returns so number must go up. Eventually companies and their executives exhaust the basic honest core business so they have to start scraping for more revenue growth. Eventually this leads to the familiar process of enshittification where the company flips the script and sells the customers as the product and nickel and dimes people. This eventually ruins the product but number must still go up, so who else can pay? Criminals, scammers, government propagandists, political influence operations, intelligence agencies, militaries, etc.

We get what I just described for the same reason basketball makes balls go through hoops.

Why does number have to go up? Because you want to retire. Your pension funds and banks and such hire financial experts to invest. Those experts invest in things that make number go up because that's their job.

That's why this is hard. You are a player. We are all both hurt by the system and benefit by the system. It feeds us and protects us and enslaves us. Everything is paradoxes and feedback loops. When you get a job you want things like benefits and union wages, but when you go shopping you pick the cheapest product which means you want to break unions.

Conspiracism is a cop out from trying to understand this. It's easier to just pick a single scapegoat (often a make believe one) and blame them.

I'm not saying all the people in all the links you posted are great people, just that they're not the architect of this. There is no architect. The game was designed by the mad blind idiot gods of complexity and evolution.

I've had the thesis for a long time that humans are not actually intelligent. We are merely clever. A clever organism can deploy local intelligence to maximize its outcome in a game. A truly intelligent organism would understand the game and become the architect. We might not have the cognitive capacity for this. Maybe ASI can, or can help us.

Maybe that's why the aliens aren't talking to us. Anyone capable of star travel is the latter. They take a look and think "interesting fauna down there but nothing intelligent yet. They only try to win games."

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I don't think the stuff the GP is describing was made by a cabal. But yeah, it's undeniable that there is a cabal controlling tech.
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the passion is only gone for the people who are working for a corporation, there's still active development on FOSS software everywhere by hobbyists everywhere. The means are still there too, you can host your own web-server or release apps, as many still do.
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> the passion is only gone for the people who are working for a corporation, there's still active development on FOSS software everywhere by hobbyists everywhere.

Unfortunately, FOSS maintainers pretty much everywhere have been drowning for years. First it was "security researchers" meat-proxying dependabot or people looking to gamify their Github stats by filing spam merge requests for typos in readmes, and now it's "security researchers" running one of the usual AI agent suspects and flooding projects with reports of varying kinds of quality.

For me, the passion is pretty much gone. It's slop everywhere.

> The means are still there too, you can host your own web-server or release apps, as many still do.

Technically you still can. Practically? Without relying on big tech for protection, your small server will be shaken down by DDoS gangs operating from North Korea, and AI-assisted skiddies will exploit any vulnerability in a matter of hours like it happened with log4j, wp2shell, php2shell and a host of other memeable security incidents. Maintaining a server these days is nasty busywork if you don't want to end up with your user data exfil'd to the darknet.

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> Technically you still can. Practically? Without relying on big tech for protection, your small server will be shaken down by DDoS gangs operating from North Korea, and AI-assisted skiddies will exploit any vulnerability in a matter of hours like it happened with log4j, wp2shell, php2shell and a host of other memeable security incidents. Maintaining a server these days is nasty busywork if you don't want to end up with your user data exfil'd to the darknet.

You can avoid most of that with a simple static website. Even if you manage the web server and OS yourself. KISS is a lifesaver.

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Eutrophy is good! Atrophy is not.
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Modern tech did not make anything a product, people using the tech did. But not all, many of us do things for fun and passion still, just don’t expect money for it. Not everything is cloud, I still use mostly things that are not cloud based. And I have lots of libraries and little utilities I maintain, none of which are related to cloud, anyone can keep doing that forever, there are lots of other developers and even normal people who still want to use those tools and apps. And come on, AI doesn’t do anything to you, it’s you who chooses when and whether to use AI for whatever purpose, and as a helper for when things get tough, AI is amazing, like a private, infinitely patient and knowledgeable personal assistant. You don’t need to let it do everything for you , keep doing things the way you enjoy it, ai can be just an infinitely superior version of StackOverflow. Or a tutor. It doesn’t need to replace you.
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Personally, I think it's good that volunteers build the internet and do things like that, but fundamentally, the barrier to the web has become too high. In the past, making a website was easier than you'd think, and the legal side was a bit more lenient, but these days, as laws accumulate precedents, there are many things to pay attention to, and starting with security, the number of things you need to worry about has increased.

The problem is that in the early days of the internet, people needed time to grow together. But these days, the barrier to entry is fundamentally higher than before. And even when making one site, you have to worry about various things...

In my view, there is also the point that people forget the fact that as business becomes more sophisticated and technology develops, the basic skills of the people involved need to increase accordingly. The reasons the internet has gotten worse are complex. For example, there is definitely the problem of people trying to make money through advertising and such, but fundamentally, the technical barrier to attracting people's attention has also risen a lot.

The amount of technology a single individual developer has to handle has also increased a lot.

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I dunno the leadership of at least US tech has been trying to market themselves as a cabal for a bit now and are doing a more convincing job of it than I thought would be possible
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I think the best has yet to come in open source. Now that language models can translate machine code into human programming languages Pandora's box has been opened.

Steve Ballmer called Linux users a bunch of communist thieves and saw open source as a cancer, however it really ended up being a win-win scenario for labor and business. IT workers could take these tools with them and improve upon them throughout their careers, business benefited from the massive pool of talent and avoided the licensing headaches.

As it turned out the Ballmerists were a bunch of landlord thieves and closed source software was the economic cancer all long :)

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There is the incentive too which LLMs destroy:

- If you embrace agentic development and prompt/produce something, a rando with spare money and a better clanker supersedes your efforts.

- If you ignore LLMs and write and design the product yourself, the LLM corpo says "All the better for me! Moar free untainted datasets for me! I'll make you buy tokens from me in the next 6 months anyway..."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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> There is no cabal of evil tech that pushes this

Very bold statement

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>> There is no cabal of evil tech that pushes this

There is. It is called Microsoft. The recent dustup over VLC being the latest battleground between the darkness and the light. My experience of the front: work wants me to install MSTeams on my personal phone... which runs GrapheneOS.

(lol, windows wants to spellcheck MSTeams into "MS Teams" but refuses to acknowledge GrapheneOS. Another MS microaggression.)

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> There is no cabal of evil tech that pushes this, but the results are the same.

Don't you believe it.

You don't need a "evil cabal" in the image of a movie caricature. It is enough to discuss with a wink-and-a-nod, shared incentives, product roadmaps, sharing profits from a global pie, circular deals etc. for a concerted group to form and start gaming the system behind the scenes.

The Computer Revolution was first and foremost a "People and Individual Freedoms" revolution. Cheap open PC hardware married to free open software made it happen. Networking and Data-Sharing were supposed to be neutral. Device control was taken away, specifically with Apple's iPhone showing the way, and then Network/Data control by Cloud companies showing the way.

The propaganda is always the same viz. "for the ultimate benefit of the end-user". Don't think/learn too much and just pay us the money to do it for you; You are nothing but just the source of revenue/profits for us.

The same thing is happening with AI where it is impossible for an individual to play due to scale and money involved.

Edward Bernays, Jacques Ellul, Walter Lippmann, Marshall McLuhan and Noam Chomsky would all feel deeply vindicated and proud.

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> who had the skills and the means to do it.

emphasis on means. The means to spend ~8 hours a day contributing instead of dedicating that time to a full time job or a second job.

But the gravy train is ending...

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I agree to some extent; however had I still contribute to Wikipedia and Wikipedia, while it has problems, is still fairly good (quality-wise could be better, a lot of content from discussions should be added to main articles but I usually confine myself to just suggest things on discussions and let others make a decision then).

> There is no cabal of evil tech that pushes this, but the results are the same.

Here I disagree. The fatso corporations 100% pursue evilness. I mean, Google removing its old motto "don't do evil" says it all.

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> Here I disagree. The fatso corporations 100% pursue evilness. I mean, Google removing its old motto "don't do evil" says it all.

I think that's right, but I also think the OP had a point as well: in some ways, the negative effects of technology, in addition to being pushed by fat corporations, are also an emergent effect of the technology itself that goes beyond intention. Examples:

* Google probably didn't have a master plan to push SEO slop, but it came about anyway because it's in human nature to game the system.

* If someone creates one product to become more efficient, it's likely that another person will also do so, even if the net result is negative due to the prisoner's dilemma. (Bug finding vs Bug exploitation).

Etc. You can think of many examples, but how much in tech creates arms race scenarios that we MUST play out to stay afloat? How many people use LLMs just to keep up with their peers who use them?

That creates an emergent phenomena of creating problems not necessarily planned, even though a lot of the impetus to create the arms-race scenarios WERE intented by the rich.

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