upvote
Classifications are useful. Even the 'proper' planets we split into terrestrials, Jovian giants, and ice giants. Each planet is individually interesting in itself. One might even argue all of the bodies in the Solar System exist on a continuum of mass from the tiniest mote of space dust, to rocks and asteroids, to moons and dwarf planets to terrestrial planets, ice giants, giants, and then the Sun, and then hypergiant stars, neutron stars, black holes, and then supermassive black holes, so let's call all of them 'celestial objects'—which we kind of do. But such a catch-all is pointless. Each object behaves very differently, with wildly different physical laws governing its interior and its neighbourhood.

Classifications impose structure on a collection of celestial objects, and we can derive relationships, commonalities, understand their development, the physics governing these objects, and build useful physical and mathematical models to widen our understanding of the universe.

Most reasonable scientists understand that some of these objects will blur the edges—like many moons being more massive and larger than Mercury. Or like the largest super-Earth exoplanets being nearly as massive as Neptune, or the largest gas giant exoplanets being 30-80 times as massive as Jupiter and hence having a surface temperature of ~2000 K. But that is part of science, and possibly even where the most interesting work is.

reply
> Classifications are useful.

I wasn't arguing against classification, just that I remain unconvinced that the classification which IAU adopted is superior to the alternatives.

One problem with the IAU definition: it only works for our planetary system, not for exoplanets – with the end result that we have two different definitions of "planet", one for our system, one for everywhere else.

Now, of course, that in part reflects that we have vastly more information about our own system than any other – but, a few centuries or millennia from now, I expect we'll know a lot more about some of those other systems – we will probably have sent probes to explore the nearer ones by then – at which point people (or AIs?) will probably push to unify the two definitions. My own bet is they'll be more likely to unify them by dropping "clear the neighbourhood" from the our-system definition than extending it to apply to other systems. Splitting the common category of "planet" into two subcategories based on "does it clear its neighbourhood" works much better than insisting on two disjoint categories based on that criterion when you have very limited information on where that criterion is met.

reply
Classifications are useful! It is poor form to take a widely used and historic term and add on a whole different (dynamic!!) category of attribute as a filter on the definition. There is quite a bit of absurdity in the 2006 IAU's definition of a planet. If a massive object came into the solar system and perturbed orbits, caused chaos and collisions, then any "planet" with debris within its neighborhood would cease to be a planet. What do we gain from adding a whole different category of attribute (relationship to its neighborhood) as a criterion? Does it realistically outweigh decades or centuries of peoples intuition of the existing definition? Its not just a matter of science, but language and communication. If you want greater specificity, come up with a new term or use compounded terms.

It very much seems like the definition was just shoe-horned to stem any more planets needing to be added. It would be interesting to know if astronomers walk the walk when it comes the definition. If I research when planets were formed would I get the date when their neighborhoods were cleared? Do discussions around large events that send debris into the neighborhood of planets correctly reflect that they cease to be planets until it is cleared?

Alan Stern said it best

>"We're going to call it a cow, except when it's in a herd." A river is a river, independent of whether there are other rivers nearby. In science, we call things what they are based on their attributes, not what they're next to.

>And the IAU definition is even worse, because it produces different categorizations for identical objects, depending on where they are. Get this — Earth at the same distance from the sun [as Pluto] would not be a planet by the IAU’s measure, because Earth can’t clear that zone either. I would say any definition that produces a result where Earth is not a planet under any circumstance is immediately indicted as ridiculous, because one thing we all agree is a planet is planet Earth!

>That's crazy. No wonder teachers and students are frustrated, confused, unhappy. It reflects poorly on astronomy, to have something so illogical.

https://www.space.com/12710-pluto-defender-alan-stern-dwarf-...

reply
I find this interview very interesting, because around a decade prior, Stern himself proposed 'clear the neighbourhood'[1] as a finer-grained rule for planet classification involving the dynamics of the planetary body in question. That is, planets that could clear their neighbourhoods are überplanets; otherwise unterplanets. In fact, near the end of that paper he proposes not two, but five classifications of planets: subdwarf, dwarf, subgiant, giant, and supergiant.

Now, Stern's broader argument in that interview is that we should not take into account the dynamical behaviour of planets. I disagree, especially since dynamics determine the static future state of any given object. Take chthonian planets—former gas giants whose gaseous envelopes have been stripped away by the primary. Do we insist that they are still gas giants? No, we even came up with a name for the transitory period when these planets are losing their gas envelopes.

Personally, I think Stern was being a little more animated to drum up support for and shine a beacon on New Horizons, a then-ongoing mission that he was principal investigator of.

To directly answer your question:

> If a massive object came into the solar system and perturbed orbits, caused chaos and collisions, then any "planet" with debris within its neighborhood would cease to be a planet.

There actually are (multiple) mathematical formulations for 'clearing the neighbourhood'[2]; it's not purely empirical or based on vibes. Stern proposed one in the above-mentioned paper. Jean-Luc Margot suggests several more[3]. I suspect a more universal model will be probabilistic but grounded in celestial mechanics.

> Does it realistically outweigh decades or centuries of peoples intuition of the existing definition?

People's intuition for 'planet' in the centuries before telescopes were invented was 'something that moves against the fixed background of stars'—that is literally the Greek etymon for the English 'planet'. The Sun and Moon used to be a part of the 'classical planets'. We didn't even find the last two (or three) planets in our own Solar System until around two centuries ago. We didn't know about nuclear fusion until 1925, and we didn't know other galaxies existed until similarly recently. We didn't understand the inflationary model of the universe until the 1960s. The first exoplanet was discovered only in 1992.

We have repeatedly and retroactively renamed, retconned, reworked, revamped and rewound scientific definitions and models over and over again. I think planets will be OK.

[1]: https://doi.org/10.1017/S1539299600013289

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearing_the_neighbourhood

[3]: https://doi.org/10.1088/0004-6256/150/6/185

reply
I find it particularly amusing that the IAU definition, in a footnote, expressly declares the eight planets to be what they are. In other words, the true definition for being a planet is to be defined as a planet- so the criteria it gives are entirely superfluous, at least when it comes to our own solar system.

It's clear that they worked backwards from the eight planets to come up with a classification system that fit, but in realizing the problems with the approach, just gave up and created the carve-out.

Also, just as another example of the absurdity of the IAU definition, there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Earth's moon would be a planet under the criteria: it orbits the sun, it's round, and it's massive enough / positioned such that it's capable of clearing its neighborhood.

reply
Yes, regardless of the specific labels, there are clearly interesting and meaningful differences between these things, and it’s worth having vocabulary capable of distinguishing them. The whole universe is a continuum of stuff but it helps to have more than just the word “stuff”.
reply
Arguably there are just two categories: stuff and not-stuff (aka vacuum). And then you go from intergalactic space (almost entirely not-stuff) via interstellar space (marginally more stuff) through planets and stars up to neutron stars (lots of stuff) to black holes (well, we don't actually know what is inside a black hole exactly, our models break down).

Is this classification useful for everyday life? Not at all, but looking at things from different perspectives for a change can be quite amusing.

reply
The backlash was all just populist ignorance on display. There were multiple concrete measures of planetness constructed and Pluto is an outlier in all of them. One of these things is not like the others.
reply
I think the backlash was fed by insistence dwarf planets are not just a subtype of planets, it's such a "well ackchyually" type thing to choose that name for it regardless of how valid it was to break out the category that I'm not sure it'll ever stop being talked about.

Even something as simple as "planets" contains "major planets" and "minor planets" would have avoided 20 years of people arguing about the names instead of caring to learn what's different about them. But you never hear people explaining why the IAU insists "dwarf planets" aren't "planets" even when "dwarf planets" has several subcategories which don't share the "planet" moniker, you just hear people argue about missing Pluto or call other people ignorant of the technical details of the categories.

reply
They are a separate category and it can clearly be demonstrated.
reply
Agreed...?
reply
Yeah. The gas giants are clearly way different from rocky planets and we still keep them all under one taxonomical grouping. Pluto and other bodies should have been an extension of that: make them dwarf planets or whatever other classification you want. But they're still planets. Theres no "demotion" just a further categorization.
reply
To me this subject is just a combo of bikeshedding[0] lumper and splitter[1] stuff by people who aren't domain subject experts.

I find people do this a lot with space stuff because they're interested in it but don't really know much about it.

It's ultimately irrelevant to the subject at hand and detracts from the conversation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters

reply
And a spattering of domain subject experts being offended that they don't have veto power over colloquial terminology
reply
You can just keep calling it a planet in everyday conversation if that's your jam. There's no astronomy police that will come to get you if you do.

Just expect to be corrected and "well, achually"-ed by people who follow the current naming system, especially in science circles.

reply
Right. Somewhat similar to other dual-use words like “work”, “energy”, “power”, “momentum”.

With such “well, ackshually”s as “you didn’t really do any work at all when you were pushing on that tree trunk” and “you specified watts, but you really wanted to use lumens”.

reply
I'm amused that you described a group policing terminology right after saying there's no group policing terminology.
reply
Ok so we have 50 planets?
reply
I mean, why not?
reply
It would make the mnemonic for memorizing the order of the planets very long and difficult for the children to remember.

My Very Elegant Mother Just Served Us Nachos

reply
deleted
reply
Yes. I wouldn't call a dwarf person any less of a person, nor would i refer to a dwarf planet as being any less a planet. Between the terrestrial planets, the gas giants, the ice giants, and arguably a couple of rounder moons, we have far more than 50 planets in our solar system.

By some extreme definitions, Earth might not be a planet. Some say the moon is too big to qualify the earth "cleared out its orbit" criteria, making Earth-moon some sort of double planet... like Pluto-Charon.

reply
Setting aside the whole "demote Pluto" and "dwarf planet" aspects, I find it amusing that we use the same term for small rocky Mercury (2,440 km radius, 5% of Earth's mass) and immense gaseous Jupiter (69,000 km radius, over 300 times Earth's mass). Only we don't, of course. Jupiter is a gas giant, while Mercury is a rocky planet, or iron planet; there's a lot of 'planet' terminology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_planet_types

reply
It gets even weird when you consider Ganymede which is larger than mercury but not a planet because it's a moon.
reply
Ultimately these sorts of quibbles are fundamentally semantic in nature thus (in general) entirely pointless. It's only the subjects themselves - the myriad celestial bodies - that are interesting.
reply
It's semantics as well as a collision with our inability to work with gradients. We can look at two colours and can name the discrete ones - but when does red stop being red? When does a species emerge?
reply
Yeah, I don't like when a modifier is mandatory. If they chose to label them "dwarf planets" then it should be expected that people will leave off the modifier "dwarf" when being concise.

If they really didn't want people to continue to refer to them as planets, then they should have chosen a completely different noun.

reply