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I think it's worse than that. Even what people think of as a "legit business" like Amazon and Walmart are scamming a significant percentage of their customers.

Selling people mountains of cheap garbage that will break almost immediately is not much different than theft to me. But it's a scam that benefits enough other people like the shipping industry than nobody will rock the boat.

The economy in general is trending more into figuring out how to siphon wealth from people without money into the pockets of people who already have everything. Poor people are actually pretty profitable because they have little choice in spending.

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Amazon is explicitly auctioning off (and not even second-price auction) search spots. So if you search for something you don't get shown what you search for but something that Amazon extracts the maximum amount of money from.
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> The economy in general is trending more into figuring out how to siphon wealth from people without money into the pockets of people who already have everything. Poor people are actually pretty profitable because they have little choice in spending.

There are levels to the game everywhere. One example that I can think of is on the timeshare stuff in Mexico where they exploit retired older people into buying fake ownership of something and end up instead just owning a huge debt.

It’s like the world has entered an era of abundance where the game is no longer about value but rather perception of value and ways to pressure your psychological makings.

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I don't consider selling cheap junk as a scam. To me its more an indicator of what consumers want and are willing to pay for.

If we wanted better quality stuff and weren't willing to buy cheap crap they would stop selling it or they'd go out of business.

These businesses haven't shifted from selling high quality products to junk quietly and without lowering prices. We all know the quality, how is that a scam?

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I question that people truly want this cheap throwaway garbage. Just look at all the seasonal produced use once stuff (think Easter, Halloween, xmas, etc.) that people buy because they are cheap and do it for a moment, the. They go into the bin. When I was young such decoration was previous, cherished and stored for next season. Over time it grew. Now everyone buys some plastic spiderweb because it's cheap and the neighbors down street have deco up as well. Mountains or crap.
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One example of scam behavior:

Amazon, for sure, is well aware of bogus product reviews, and does nothing to fix them. The most galling: hundreds of reviews for products not related to the item.

It's okay to have cheap junk, but not okay to fraudulently pretend it's high quality.

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I think, though I have no way to prove it, that the "Amazon's Choice" is also a "scam"-like moniker. In many of the electronic products I come across, it is often a poorly reviewed product compared to many other options, making me think it is the one that Amazon profits from the most.
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Hey, it's Amazon choice. Whatever positive attributes you associate with the term is up to you. Treat is as any sticker a shop puts onto a product. Its the equivalent to Costco or Walmart home brand.
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> I don't consider selling cheap junk as a scam.

What about selling cheap junk while claiming it is a high-quality long lasting premium product?

while it may be legal, and may be hard to outlaw, it is still a scam

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Someone can tell me the product they own and want me to buy is top quality, its up to me to believe them.

Its also a bit of a fool me once situation. If I believe their quality claims and buy a product to find its junk, shame on them. If I keep going back expecting quality, shame on me.

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Doesn't that mean the Microsoft tech support scam isn't a scam then because the customer willingly transferred his life savings to the scammer?
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The person sending their life savings is absolutely partly at fault there, you do still have to pay attention. Your example is very different though, it isn't Microsoft on the other end of that scam, its a person lying about who they are and using Microsoft's name to run a con.
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Unfortunately that is the same mentality that drives offshoring and such.

Most people are fully aware of it, hence why cheap 1 euro shops (nowadays a bit more than that however) are so prevalent across the globe, or buying counterfeit goods at street bazaars.

Most will rather buy something five times, than one good enough that will last.

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I'm in the buy for quality camp, but with rampant enshitification and private equity cashing in on brand cachet, plus the manipulation of reviews and astroturfing, I find discoverability a real challenge.
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I wouldn’t consider that a scam so much as the inevitable result of brand reputation being diluted into nothing. Intermingling is part of the problem, but the real scam is every single Reddit-brand-check for BIFL is always “20 years ago this was a top-tier brand, now it’s garbage. Check craigslist/ebay”

Which is probably a direct result of things like consumer reports going down the gutter.

With the massive expansion of information available today, reputation should be utterly paramount to sort out the chaff and somehow it’s instead become entirely meaningless

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It's surprising most MLM's are still so obvious. AI is going to be revolutionary for scammers. We're rapidly moving past call-bots that are good enough to bilk seniors. Imagine a MLM where the thousands of other suckers lining up to do the same thing are effectively invisible to the mark. That small fee the mark pays will seem like an unusual and extraordinary exception, but a necessary one. Suspicions will be allayed slickly, deadlines will be adjusted to add just the right amount of pressure, and the payoff will always be tantalizingly close. Every mark's online presence will be scraped so they can receive a custom tailored experience designed to press all their buttons.

It's also going to be about as easy to hold a data-centre in Nigeria responsible for scams running on their hardware as it is to prosecute a crooked call-centre in Mumbai today. AI-supercharged MLM's are going to be harder to block too. A call-centre can be blocked by telecoms (even if most don't currently bother). A MLM exploiting multiple forms of social media, websites, and networking apps on top of phones?

We need to start pressuring our governments to devote more resources to police anti-fraud units. We can't rely on journalists do this job.

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>"It's surprising most MLM's are still so obvious."

From what I have heard & read, the obviousness is either intentional or unintentionally helpful, because it filters out people who would eventually figure out the scam (and would take up the scammers' efforts in the meantime). That said, more complicated frauds like what you're describing will likely proliferate.

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that's what you've read, and everyone's read. I'm not sure it has actual evidence behind it.
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I had a phone call the other day from someone identifying as police officer saying they raided a house and found something likely belonging to me and there is ongoing investigation. They knew my basic personal details. What was interesting that there was almost no gap between what I said and their response and voice sounded quite natural. I kept it for a while, because once I had a doctor call me who sounded like AI, but it was actually his real voice and it was embarrassing as I called him out for being AI. Anyway, they tried to get me to fill a police form (they knew my email as well) - this is where I realised this is a 100% scam. The email was spoofed. I reported this to the police, but they were not interested. I thought impersonation of police officer would be a serious matter. Apparently not in the UK.
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There's a specialist action fraud line you can call for this, and I believe they track this stuff. Otherwise it will be like trying to tell a traffic cop about a non traffic offence
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It's a waste of time. I've done it before and nothing ever came out of this.
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They probably get dozens of calls per day about that sort of thing and the anti-fraud unit is already overwhelmed.
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Yep. And it's only going to get worse as the population of wealthy older people suffering from mild cognitive impairment continues to grow. They're the perfect target for online scams: still able to use computers and in control of substantial assets but also lonely and gullible.
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If Your Bank Could Detect Dementia, Would You Let It? - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2026-11-13/how-finan... | https://archive.today/K2zXK - November 13th, 2026
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>how much of the actual economy is above-board business

Illegal drugs are absolutely a single digit percentage of the economy.

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>I'm starting to think a very large chunk of the internet (and national economy) basically runs on scamming people.

It's called convergence. As we import people from India and China en masse, we become a little bit more like them.

With no corresponding reverse flow, they remain unchanged, so the process is stable for as long as we allow it to be (and for as long as the cultural arbitrage exists.)

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Land of the lie, home of the scam, the worst of which is the red team / blue team garbage you people devour everyday designed by the political elite to give you a distinction without a difference and keep you distracted and in conflict with your fellows.
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Wait till you visit China.
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A prohibited product and a scam are not the same thing, like, at all. Putting both of them together is disingenuous.
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Dead Internet theory.
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Isn’t DIT mainly about how no one online posting is actually a person?
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Maybe we need a new term/definition. The idea of you aren't engaging with something in good faith.
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Evil internet theory wooah
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Joining them both, that makes a Lich internet theory...
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Originally, yes
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Well I know for a fact I’m not a person
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Fraud has been the fastest growing sector for about 20 years now. Much of this is movement of previously simply scammy products into actual scams. The kinds of things that you used to find advertised on late night television are now supercharged by Amazon availability, by ads that can directly target likely marks, and by the terrible state of reviews; it's so easy to manipulate that there's effectively zero correlation between quality and reviews on any major site, and paradoxically the sites actually selling products are the least awful at this.

This is only the start, though, because growing even faster are obviously criminal exploitations. Flat out forgeries dominated the Amazon marketplace due to Amazon's binning practices. This ruined the margins and destroyed the reputations of every quality vendor. They have reversed this course, but too late, the quality vendors mostly went under or were bought up by scammers to ride their reputations, and we are left with marketplaces full of fly-by nights. Every major retailer dropped their quality to zero to keep up.

And last, we get to do the brazen criminality, pig fattening scams, tech support scams, identity theft, criminal gangs raiding supermarkets en-mass, and all manner of wire fraud. These are growing even faster, as an aging population has provided ample prey for these sorts of scams. They are generally headquartered overseas and effectively immune from prosecution.

It is not all Doom. These are problems that have been dealt with before. There is an idiom that has softened with use, "wild west", that accurately describes this. The solution, historically, was the posse system, state authorized activity that otherwise looked an awful lot like vigilante justice. We haven't demanded that yet, but we will soon.

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Why isn't there, like, a website that is like Amazon but not a scam, and people actually use? Actually I know many of these, but nobody talks about them and everyone only talks about Amazon - why is that?
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The logic of profit turns everything towards allowing scammers. eBay, Etsy, and many more have started out with high minded marketplaces of trust before they succumbed to the reality that crap shovelers are lucrative.
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