upvote
"Don't be snarky."

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

reply
Imagine you have 100 acres growing corn for biofuels, would it be nice to replace these by 99 acres of wilderness and 1 acre of photovoltaics producing the same amount of biofuels?

If your photovoltaics are 100x more efficient to produce your chemicals, agriculture is the dirty way of doing it.

reply
We could more or less do that now. In fact we should probably just stop growing corn for biofuel, it's not obvious that it's even energy-positive, let alone a good use of farmland.
reply
What do you mean by Biofuel? Like getting it from Biomass.

I don't understand, can't we get Biomass from like undesirable items like (not to gross anyone out, but feces?) whereas corn still has some value where you can actually eat it.

reply
Does it mention it’s 100x more efficient anywhere? Or is it just an example you’re providing, in which case, why not 1000x?
reply
They might be remembering the stat that:

> Looking at land-use efficiency, corn-derived ethanol used to power internal combustion engines requires about 85x (range: 63-197x) as much land to power the same number of transportation miles as solar PV powering electric vehicles.

reply
What's that supposed to be relevant to? We don't make corn-derived fuel because it's cost-effective. It isn't. The idea is to give corn farmers something to do, which won't work if you reduce the amount of corn you're growing.
reply
We make corn-derived fuel in order to power the Iowa caucus.

Corn farmers could be doing literally anything else, including a whole variety of things that rebuild soil or capture carbon or generate electricity, and it would be equally effective at powering the Iowa caucus, as long as we pay them to do it. They could even be producing crops organically, producing free-range livestock, or producing different lower-return higher-nutrition types of food, should we ever be interested in changing our diet a little. Deciding to produce the world's largest excess food supply in an industrialized fashion and then literally burning it was maybe a poor use of resources.

reply
> why not 1000x?

now we're talking - can I invest in your company?

reply
Corn isn't particularly great for producing ethanol. I'm guessing that a synthetic process won't be able to get close to 100x less land usage, but any improvement would be welcome.

The problem I see is that there's not enough money in in to develop a new process. Cellulosic ethanol outperforms corn on nearly every measure, but there's not enough money in it to pay for the development needed to scale it up to industrial levels.

reply
Yes, and don't forget photovoltaics aren't limited to the crust - they can scale upwards, outwards, on top of oceanic deserts and arid lands.

Cover sunny, bleak northern africa in towering photovoltaics panels baby!

reply
Labeling a massive geographic zone in an underdeveloped, historically exploited area—one which plays a key role in how the climate works—-as useless, and then converting it to an extractive industry…what could go wrong?

I’m as optimistic as the next person about energy tech, but I hope it doesn’t turn out like yet more colonialism.

reply
> as useless

It's not useless, it's arid.

> which plays a key role in how the climate works

As does ever other square meter on Earth, and its natural abundant resource could be leveraged to even greater overall good.

> Extractive industry ... like yet more colonialism.

I'm not sure how we got here, or what your actual concern is.

reply
Yeah, it would be terrible to offer the citizens of Chad, Mali, Tunisia, Libya, etc an opportunity to get revenue. Only Western democracies like Norway and Australia are allowed to extract substances!
reply
I'm just picturing whole new swathes of rainforest being clearcut and bulldozed to make way for "artificial leaf farms."
reply
Photosynthesis in nature is 1% efficient so it doesn’t need to be greatly better to beat it
reply
The rubisco enzime is specially ineficient. While most enzimes can usually do thousands of reactions per second, rubisco does up to 10. Organisms compensate making loads of copies, to the point it's the most abundant enzime in nature.
reply
What can a molecule do for such a long time? I mean they move very fast, the distances there is very short, so I kinda assumed that all the molecules do they do almost instantly. But 0.1 sec doesn't seem like an instant event.
reply
Grass and trees are pretty bad at converting sun into glucose. Main enzyme in photosynthesis Rubisco is both slow (few molecules per min vs several hundred per second) and lowly selective (confusing O2 for CO2 regularly).

Which makes sense, for most of Earth's geological history CO2 was more abudant. So chance of mistaking O2 and CO2 was nil.

https://youtu.be/vYVSH2RpHcQ?feature=shared

reply
Make sure to include the time and inputs to make the grass, and especially trees; those don't just appear out of nothing. And we already know how it works, it's called logging.
reply
None of the inputs required for plants to grow require toxic pollution or destructive extraction.

Of course humans can bring in toxic or destructive inputs to try to favor certain plants over others, or humans can do other non destructive things to favor certain plants over others. Or humans can step aside and let the plants do their thing which will create abundance too. (I like the middle of these three.)

Also, trees provide far more value than timber alone.

reply
To be a pedant, the inputs for photosynthesis are pretty toxic to humans. Sunlight burns and causes skin cancer. CO2 also kills people each winter when space heaters aren't properly vented.
reply
[dead]
reply
Would you give up fertilizer and pest control and stop feeding the 8 billion ?

Please dont be a holdomorehippy.. Those back-to-nature loving massmurderers without a cause creep me out beyond repair.. those that openly hate some humans at least give the monstrous game away.

reply
Eventually, you won't have a choice when fertiliser produced from oil runs out, becomes cost prohibitive, or is made illegal due to greenhouse gas problems; likewise, "pest control" has already resulted in a 40% decline in insect populations; it won't be good if it gets to 100%.

It would be best to find sustainable ways to grow food now, instead of continuing unsustainable ways (including supplying massive food aid to unsustainable populations so they can keep growing) until there is a precipitous crash.

The idea that only industrial scale farming can feed the planet is mostly a myth promoted by producers of industrial scale inputs and the oil/gas industry, by the way.

reply
The production of concentrated nitrogen compounds from thin air is useful enough that we'll almost certainly keep doing it en masse in an electric-only future.

Mining for phosphorous and potassium fertilizers, likewise, but situationally a little different because these aren't very mobile in the groundwater column like nitrogen is, and they don't offgas back into the air like nitrogen compounds do. Quite possibly we'll be mining manure lagoons more, for CH4 and for closing the loop better on P and K.

Ag will continue at industrial scale for cereal grains, because half the population is not going back to the fields.

Within that framework, there's a lot of difference between outcomes in terms of how green we make our farms, what we grow, how we grow it. Herbicide and insecticide practices do not have to be what they are, as we witness massive overuse of things like neonics, glyphosate, and aminopyralid mostly because there's little financial reason to constrain use. We could stand to dramatically reduce the amount of cereal grain we consume, from a diet perspective, but the logistical difficulties of alternatives like more fresh fruits & vegetables will tend to increase carbon emissions. Eating less grain-fed meat and more high-protein legumes is basically a win-win from diet and climate perspectives. Returning to a less industrialized industry where livestock are raised on farms instead of on "feeding operations" seems like a fair tradeoff against something like subsidized corn-ethanol production. Attempting to encourage long-term soil stability with reduced tillage and is another goal that we might tangle with that would reduce yields; We have plenty of yield to spare in the US, so this is an option.

reply
It is a given that bovines should be eating grass (one of the most productive plants there is with the highest calories per acre), not grain, and with the bonus that bovines or other ruminants eating grass improve the soil ecology and lessen erosion. There also isn’t any need for fertiliser inputs, or any oil/gas produced inputs at all.

Chickens can also be raised more sustainably. They don’t need to be raised 50,000 at a time, and don’t need to be fed grain. I don’t feed mine other than in winter when there is snow, and they don’t forage past an acre or so area. We produce a surplus of more chicken meat and eggs than my household can eat, and I still have enough time to work full time doing something else. (The same goes for my cows, but they take even less work and basically sustain themselves - I have not bought feed for them in two years.)

Oddly enough, I now sell my eggs for less than grocery stores charge for them. I could easily plant enough cereals and legumes for my household (about a 10,000 sq ft area or ¼ acre), but haven’t done this the last 2 years since I put my effort into vegetable gardens and livestock instead.

Part of the big myth is that we need industrial scale “farming”. We don’t. A lot more humans need to be a lot closer to producing the food they eat, though. If someone owns/maintains a lawn, they should be using it to grow food, instead of buying factory farmed food. (I give apartment dwellers a free pass, but I see large swathes of land that do nothing but grow grass and then have a lawn mower run across them.)

reply
We absolutely need industrial scale farming, even if we take 40 million acres of suburban lawns and convert 10 million to active garden rows (there are many constraints on spacing, I'm dealing with this right now). Because 10 million acres feeds vegetable calories to something in the vicinity of 3-30 million people, at very high labor and logistics costs, for a small portion of the year.

It doesn't have to be 99% industrial scale farming in the current format, is the thing.

reply
> Eventually, you won't have a choice when fertiliser produced from oil runs out, becomes cost prohibitive, or is made illegal due to greenhouse gas problems

You mean, aside from the process of making ammonia using green hydrogen that doesn't use fossil fuel at all? A process that can be sustained indefinitely, using renewable energy?

The single big concern is nitrous oxide emission from bacteria in the soil, but that can be reduced by nitrification inhibitors, some of which can be produced naturally by plant roots (and likely engineered into crop plants.)

reply
Promises of “green hydrogen” and fertiliser made sustainably haven’t panned out. I’ll believe them when I see it, but I’m not a believer in industrial farming, which is more akin to mining.
reply
Green hydrogen can't compete when natural gas-derived hydrogen is allowed to dump its waste CO2 into the atmosphere. That doesn't mean it can't or won't work when natural gas is outlawed. Your evidence shows nothing except that CO2 isn't being controlled.
reply
Fertilizer is mainly made from natural gas, not oil. Accordingly it should last much longer. Worse case scenario when we run out is we switch to less efficient production, for instance splitting water using nuclear power.

Any plan that relies on depopulation isn't going to work and any attempt to force it to work would require crimes against humanity.

reply
Whose time and what inputs are required to make grass and trees? If you simply leave a place alone, it will turn into either a forest, a grassland, or desert (the latter when human activity has thoroughly destroyed it).
reply
I wouldn't replace grass or trees with this, but there's places where not much of anything is growing.
reply
[flagged]
reply
Warning: you may have become cynical.

I didn't read that comment as snarky at all - efficiency comparisons between emerging tech and SOTA (grass, trees) are extremely relevant!

(Warning to welf: you may be naive)

reply