upvote
> know full well where this is going: capital is devaluing labor

But now you too can access AI labor. You can use it for yourself directly.

reply
Kind of. But the outcomes likely do not benefit the masses. People "accessing AI labor" is just a race to the bottom. Maybe some new tools get made or small businesses get off the ground, but ultimately this "AI labor" is a machine that is owned by capitalists. They dictate its use, and they will give or deny people access to the machine as it benefits them. Maybe they get the masses dependent on AI tools that are currently either free or underpriced, as alternatives to AI wither away unable to compete on cost, then the prices are raised or the product enshittified. Or maybe AI will be massively useful to the surveillance state and data brokers. Maybe AI will simply replace a large percentage of human labor in large corporations, leading to mass unemployment.

I don't fault anyone for trying to find opportunities to provide for themselves and loved ones in this moment by using AI to make a thing. But don't fool yourself into thinking that the AI labor is yours. The capitalists own it, not us.

reply
As someone who has leaned fully into AI tooling this resonates. The current environment is an oligopoly so I'm learning how to leverage someone else's tool. However, in this way, I don't think LLMs are a radical departure from any proprietary other tool (e.g. Photoshop).
reply
Indeed. Do you know how many small consultancies are out there which are "Microsoft shops"? An individual could become a millionaire by founding their own and delivering value for a few high-roller clients.
reply
Nobody says there's no money to make anymore. But the space for that is limited, no matter how many millions hustle, there's only 100 spots in the top 100.
reply
what makes you think that's actually possible? maybe if you really had the connections and sales experience etc...

but also, if that were possible, then why wouldn't prices go down? why would the value of such labor stay so high if the same thing can be done by other individuals?

reply
I saw it happen more back in the day compared to now. Point being, nobody batted an eyelash at being entirely dependent on some company's proprietary tech. It was how money was made in the business.
reply
> it’s obviously not going to stop there.

I don’t think it is obvious actually that you won’t have to have some expert experience/knowledge/skills to get the most out of these tools.

reply
I think the keyword here is "some".

It already seemed like we were approaching the limit of what it makes sense to develop, with 15 frameworks for the same thing and a new one coming out next week, lots of services offering the same things, and even in games, the glut of games on offer was deafening and crushing game projects of all sizes all over the place.

Now it seems like we're sitting on a tree branch and sawing it off on both sides.

reply
Today. Ask again in 6 months. A year.
reply
People have been saying this for multiple years in a row now.
reply
And it has been getting more true for years in a row.
reply
Disagree entirely.

If you state “in 6 months AI will not require that much knowledge to be effective” every year and it hasn’t happened yet then every time it has been stated has been false up to this point.

In 6 months we can come back to this thread and determine the truth value for the premise. I would guess it will be false as it has been historically so far.

reply
Six months ago, we _literally did not have Claude Code_. We had MCP, A2A and IDE integrations, but we didn't have an app where you could say "build me an ios app that does $thing" and have it build the damn thing start to finish.

Three months ago, we didn't have Opus 4.5, which almost everyone is saying is leaps and bounds better than previous models. MCP and A2A are mostly antiquated. We also didn't have Claude Desktop, which is trying to automate work in general.

Three _weeks_ ago, we didn't have Clawdbot/Openclaw, which people are using to try and automate as much of their lives as possible...and succeeding.

Things are changing outrageously fast in this space.

reply
> If you state “in 6 months AI will not require that much knowledge to be effective” every year and it hasn’t happened yet then every time it has been stated has been false up to this point

I think that this has been true, though maybe not quiet a strongly as strongly worded as your quote says it.

The original statement was "Maybe GP is right that at first only skilled developers can wield them to full effect, but it's obviously not going to stop there."

"full effect" is a pretty squishy term.

My more concrete claim (and similar to "Ask again in 6 months. A year.") is the following.

With every new frontier model released [0]:

1. the level of technical expertise required to achieve a given task decreases, or

2. the difficulty/complexity/size of a task that a inexperienced user can accomplish increases.

I think either of these two versions is objectively true looking back and will continue being true going forward. And, the amount that it increases by is not trivial.

[0] or every X months to account for tweaks, new tooling (Claude Code is not even a year old yet!), and new approaches.

reply
Using a LLM to program is simply another abstraction level. Just how C was to assembly.
reply
I feel like the nondeterminism makes LLM-assisted programming a different sort of concept than using a compiler. Your prompt isn't your source code.
reply
If I could destroy these things - as the Luddites tried - I would do so

Would travel agents have been justified in destroying the Internet so that people couldn't use Expedia?

reply
> capital is devaluing labor

I guess the right word here is "disenfranchising".

Valuation is a relative thing based mostly of availability. Adding capital makes labor more valuable, not less. This is not the process happening here, and it's not clear what direction the valuation is going.

... even if we take for granted that any of this is really happening.

reply
> If I could destroy these things - as the Luddites tried - I would do so, but that's obviously impossible.

Certainly, you must realize how much worse life would be for all of us had the Luddites succeeded.

reply
If the human race is wiped out by global warming I'm not so sure I would agree with this statement. Technology rarely fails to have downsides that are only discovered in hindsight IMO.
reply
Sure, but would it have been better or worse for the Luddites?
reply
Or perhaps they would have advanced the cause of labor and prevented some of the exploitation from the ownership class. Depends on which side of the story you want to tell. The slur Luddite is a form of historical propaganda.

Putting it in today's terms, if the goal of AI is to significantly reduce the labor force so that shareholders can make more money and tech CEOs can become trillionaires, it's understandable why some developers would want to stop it. The idea that the wealth will just trickle down to all the laid off work is economically dubious.

reply
Reaganomics has never worked
reply
> Reaganomics has never worked

Depends how you look at it.

Trickle down economics has never worked in the way it was advertised to the masses, but it worked fantastically well for the people who pushed (and continue to push) for it.

reply
Sure, because it all trickles into their pockets.
reply
problem today is that there is no "sink" for money to go to when it flows upwards. we have resorted to raising interest rates to curb inflation, but that doesn't fix the problem, it just gives them an alternative income source (bonds/fixed income)

I'm not a hard socialist or anything, but the economics don't make sense. if there's cheap credit and the money supply perpetually expands without a sink, of course people with the most capital will just compound their wealth.

so much of the "economy" orbits around the capital markets and number going up. it's getting detached from reality. or maybe I'm just missing something.

reply
Yeah it's called wealth transfer and the vast majority is on the wrong end.
reply
The historical luddites are literally the human death drive externalized. Reject them and all of their garbage ideas with extreme prejudice.

Related, the word “meritocracy” was coined in a book which was extremely critical of the whole concept. AI thankfully destroys it. Good riddance, don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

reply
You can reject the ideas in the aggregate. Regardless, for the individual, your skills are being devalued, and what used to be a reliable livelihood tied to a real craft is going to disappear within a decade or so. Best of luck
reply
> The historical luddites are literally the human death drive externalized. Reject them and all of their garbage ideas with extreme prejudice.

Yes, because fighting for the rights of laborers is obviously what most people hate.

reply
For a different perspective:

"Except the Luddites didn’t hate machines either—they were gifted artisans resisting a capitalist takeover of the production process that would irreparably harm their communities, weaken their collective bargaining power, and reduce skilled workers to replaceable drones as mechanized as the machines themselves."

https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2021/06/the-luddites-wer...

reply
I bet you’re one of the same dumbasses who fell hook, line and sinker for the cold fusion fraud a few years back lmao.
reply
Either you're thinking of the "room temperature semi-conductor" thing out of Korea, or you're some boomer who forgot that cold fusion was in the 80s.
reply