upvote
Even in the states, it’s more a distortion caused by the big tech centres. A software engineer in Ohio doesn’t command that kind of salary, but in San Francisco or Seattle that’ll buy you a moderately-senior engineer.

And while academic salaries are generally not great, tenured professors at big universities tend to make a fair bit (plus a lot more vacation time and perks than is normal in the US)

reply
> A software engineer in Ohio doesn’t command that kind of salary, but in San Francisco or Seattle that’ll buy you a moderately-senior engineer.

On the other hand, a CEO of a well-known nonprofit might command that kind of salary in Ohio. People often underestimate how much the leaders of nonprofits pay themselves.

reply
I'm not entirely convinced that this is entirely some sort of widespread bad behavior. Many non-profit boards conduct research on salaries and essentially size their organization and pay something akin to a market rate for the given size and scope.

However, even a small percentage of bad actors finding a way to inflate their salaries will, as a side effect, inflate salaries across the board because it influences the process that sets the salaries for the honest organizations.

It's a fun problem.

reply
I suspect abuse is more prevalent at the low end, among nonprofits that don’t do much.

I stand by the point of my original post: People often underestimate how much the leaders of nonprofits pay themselves. These are figures you can look up and quiz your friends to test the hypothesis, if they’re into that sort of thing. For a good time include some nonprofit hospitals.

reply
Outside of manipulating the board, they do not pay themselves, though. The board decides their comp package.
reply
That's fair, but the boards of nonprofits are as corruptible (I'm reluctant to use that word since we're talking about fairly standard practices, not outright crime, but whatever) as those in the corporate world. But I wouldn't want to keep talking about this situation as if it's all theoretical. In contrast with a lot of the corporate world, with nonprofits you can just go and look at what their officers are paid (it's public record) and decide for yourself what you feel about the figures.
reply
It's also caused by progressive tax rates. People take harder jobs based on net wage, not gross wage, so gross wage has to compensate.
reply
>Salaries in the US are so bonkers.

Sure, but the cost of living there is significantly higher as well. Anyway, I can hardly even comprehend these kinds of sums, though I am a bit of an outlier, as I earn around $27,700 as an SWE in Europe, which is low even by the standards of companies in my own country.

reply
> Sure, but the cost of living there is significantly higher as well.

The US is huge though, and the cost of living is astronomically lower outside of those big tech hub cities. I live in a tiny town in the midwest with a big house and a big yard that we bought for $89k USD in 2016[†]. I'm able to support myself and my wife comfortably on just my (self-employed) SWE salary.

[†] Real estate inflation index for our area says the house would have cost us around $130-$150k USD in 2026.

reply
Everyone outside the US doesn't deal with USD. Your comment is bonkers. Read up on purchasing power. All locations are not equal.
reply
The traditional definition of high income starts at 2x the median. Looking the US as a whole, anything above $125k should be considered high income. But it doesn't feel like that, because median wages are unusually low in the US relative to mean wages. Upper middle class salaries, on the other hand, have grown very high, and they have distorted people's perceptions. Even now, we are debating whether almost 5x the median should be considered high income.
reply
The us has an enormous per capita gdp for that large a country
reply
Silicon Valley is the only place in the United States where $300K is even close to the "middle" of anything.

I just moved to SV a few months ago from the Midwest (and not a particularly cheap part of it). Telling my coworkers who aren't from the US what a house costs in Wisconsin, you'd have thought I was the one who moved from a foreign country.

reply
> Silicon Valley is the only place in the United States where $300K is even close to the "middle" of anything.

It does heavily cluster around SV, for sure, but Seattle/NewYork/Boston/Arlington will all get you there, and Chicago/Austin/etc aren't all that far behind at this point

reply
Note that you are seeing an explicit tradeoff of different economic systems.
reply
Not everywhere. Switzerland exists. Also cost of living is a thing so if anything US/CH just ramp up to match that. The rest of Europe has high CoL but terrible salaries. Asia has bad salaries but low CoL (on average).
reply
According to swissdevjobs.ch[1], the top 10% salary for a senior software developer in Switzerland is 135,000 swiss franc; that's roughly $170,000 per year.

So if this is correct, then even in Switzerland, it seems like $300,000 per year would be an obscenely high salary for a senior developer.

[1]: https://swissdevjobs.ch/salaries/all/all/Senior

reply
Well first of all it's a CEO position, not an SWE :)

Even if we scope it to SWE, I don't think that's far off the US percentiles.

In London I imagine the top 10% SWE is not even 100k GBP. In Germany even worse.

reply
I responded to the idea that $300,000/year is a "mid-to-high engineering salary". CEO salaries are absurdly high everywhere.
reply
Oh right, well it depends on CoL doesn't it? You can reframe European salaries as 'obscene' by world standards too. Both the US and Europe have totally broken and unaffordable housing markets, for example, but at least the Bay Area compensates with salary. I would say that relative to costs it's more that other salaries are obscenely low, if anything. People in Europe should be rioting, but unfortunately only the home owners are politically active.
reply
Does cities like San Francisco not have janitors? Waiters? Food delivery drivers? Or do those jobs command a six-figure salary too? If they can live comfortably in the city on a five-figure salary, maybe the argument that "cost of living is so high in SF that you can't live without a $300,000/year salary" is just a little bit overblown?

I can not imagine what one could possibly need $300,000 per year for unless an apartment costs like $200,000 per year.

reply
> Does cities like San Francisco not have janitors? Waiters?

When I used to visit the Meta campus in Menlo Park, the QA folk I worked with were commuting 2 hours each way just to be able to afford housing. I've no idea how far away the janitorial staff must have lived to do the same

reply
I worked at Redwood Shores. On a walk across the 101, I discovered where the cleaning staff and food workers lived. In cars, under the bridge or parked in a quiet corner of the street next to industrial or commercial property.
reply
> I can not imagine what one could possibly need $300,000 per year for unless an apartment costs like $200,000 per year.

Being able to afford unpredictable expenses and not have it bankrupt you. In the US, that would include healthcare. Everywhere in the world, that would be useful if you were laid off.

reply
To build an emergency fund, you just need an income that's a bit higher than your expenses. If you earn $60,000 after tax per year, and spend $50,000 per year, you have a decent $10,000 emergency fund after one year and a massive $100,000 emergency fund after a decade. You don't need $300,000 per year to save.
reply
You get by on a low salary by living with multiple people in the same apartment. Or you live far away and commute. Or both.

Not really a tenable long-term situation for a senior employee with plans to start a family. Family homes of decent size and area are literally millions of dollars.

reply
I guess I don't understand why programmers somehow deserve a better life than other people. Janitors deserve to start families too, don't they?
reply
Its about how the market values those skillsets, not about what people “deserve.”

No one is sitting around and setting salaries based on the intrinsic human dignity of the people working jobs.

reply
Usually this kind of argument leads to punishing the programmers, not lifting up the janitors.
reply
That's kind of two sides of the same coin, isn't it? The cost of living is so high in part because so many have ridiculously high salaries, isn't it?
reply
> The cost of living is so high in part because so many have ridiculously high salaries

Bigger problem in the SF area is that a bunch of folks who owned property before the gold rush have ended up real-estate-rich, and formed a voting block that actively prevents the construction of new housing (on the basis that it might devalue their accidental real estate investment)

reply
It's not about deserving, programmers just have enough market power to be able to choose to go elsewhere. Janitors and other more fungible employees do not.

Besides, I did already say that everyone else was underpaid relative to costs. But that's not unique to the Bay Area. Cost of housing relative to income is terrible in almost all of the major European cities too.

Once cities become wealthy enough to develop a home owning class, they seem to cease being able to provision adequate housing supply in general.

reply
> Oh right, well it depends on CoL doesn't it?

To some extent, maybe, but often not. For example, London has similar cost of living to the Bay Area, and when I was at Meta experienced folks like Dan Abramov over in London were making about the same as fresh college hires in Menlo Park...

reply
Yeah I was talking more about the definition of obscene. Like is it obscene to make 300k if housing is so expensive? I say no, and that London salaries are just bad. Although it would be preferable to fix the housing market.

To be fair though, Dan specifically is kind of notorious for messing up his comp negotiation. Did you not see the Twitter pile on at the time?

reply
> Dan specifically is kind of notorious for messing up his comp negotiation

Indeed, but having seen the infamous spreadsheet, he didn't have all that much headroom (unless he agreed to move to the US)

reply
It's frankly not that crazy of a salary for an important executive position.

The city manager of a small city in Texas gets paid around that much and that's taxpayer money.

Now what collegiate football coaches are paid, that's pretty crazy.

reply
So is the living cost. Insurance, housing, etc. A better comparison is PPP.
reply
Living costs are similarly high in many places that have nowhere near the salaries of the US.

It's still the land of opportunities. It's easier to find ways to reduce your living costs than ways to increase your salary.

reply
Europoors should keep quiet when talking about US tech culture.
reply
Yes the obvious play is to move human labor to cheaper countries like France (including CEO of course).
reply
The net salary in France might be low but the overall cost of hiring is quite high. Besides, why go to the middle when you can just find even cheaper places, if that's your prime metric?
reply
deleted
reply
The reason the French can’t build these things is the same reason they shouldn’t be allowed to be in charge. It’s a preprint PDF host. Just make your own if you can run this one.
reply
They do have their own: https://hal.science/

It is actually quite common to come across HAL in subfields of mathematics in my experience.

reply
That’s great. People will use whichever one is better.
reply
Turns out that "better" for many people means "better moderated", since static hosting is hard to differentiate. And at present Arxiv is winning that one (at the expense of considerably higher running costs due to said moderation)
reply
HAL is decidedly second-tier. Given the option, everyone would pick arXiv over HAL. Hence, HAL hosts lots of stuff that didn't (even) make it to arXiv => lots of subpar dredge.
reply
I agree that dredge is a huge problem with HAL, but it's getting better. While arXiv is still stuck with a unfriendly UI.
reply
> HAL is decidedly second-tier. Given the option, everyone would pick arXiv over HAL.

Can you elaborate on that?

reply