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I'm not sure I'd put it down entirely to Osaka versus Kyoto. My impression is that these things often have at least as much to do with upbringing, formality, and social background as with region.

I don't know where you're from, so apologies if this is an unfair assumption, but in countries like the US or Australia people often seem less attuned to social class, whereas in places like the UK, France, and indeed Japan, those distinctions can carry more weight, even if they almost always go unspoken.

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In general, upper-classish dining probably used to be more formal in the US in terms of cutlery type and placement and other things. May still be in some circles but no one I know worries about such things and even very decent restaurants don’t. And when was the last time you saw a fish fork?
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Agreed. Was always taught to never put elbows on the table, but as an adult I see people do it everywhere.
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Seeing people fail to meet a standard does not mean that the standard does not exist.
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I think the deeper question is whose standards and why should we consider them the standard?
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Some of them of course are invented whole cloth. British Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate.
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You say “needs to be learned” but that’s no more so than any other accent.

We just grow up with it because it’s how our parents and the parents of our friends speak.

If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a large variety of accents of which RP is one.

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"Received Pronunciation was invented"

How so?

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That's the thing with standards: there are so many of them to choose from.

You don't have to follow them, but you do you should be ready to accept the consequences of your choice.

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When it comes to manners, I'd say seeing enough people fail to meet a standard means it's not a standard, at least.
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No, that's argumentum ad populum.

Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids:

- the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them

- the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless.

- If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence)

- You are free to not comply to some rules, but always be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions.

- What your friends are doing or not doing is not reason enough for you to change your behavior or choices.

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> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them

But not observing them does. There are standards no one in the world follows anymore. They may still “be there”, but are only used for mocking purposes.

> If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence)

The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes anyone else for not following a standard must be able to explain why it exists. “Because it’s rude” it’s not good enough, explain why it’s considered rude.

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But the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard.
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You and I are using different meanings for standard.
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then it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard
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> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them

If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard.

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Most people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Standards are not absolutes.

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Yeah, as if we still have loose table tops, like in medieval times.
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I would say you dodged a bullet.

I dated many foreign girls and it was always fun to discover the cultural differences.

There are similar faux-pas in France but, really, nobody with an ounce of common sense cares. You like your red wine cold as I do? Someone will maybe mention that you will be loosing some aroma znd that's all. You add sugar and ice? This is probably not a drink for you and you will get some laughs but that's all.

I eat my starters after the main meal in the company restaurant, nobody cares.

You are there to have pleasure, this is not West Point

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Could be the Japanese version of getting a friend to "save them from the date" by calling to pretend it is an emergency.
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I wonder what Ms. Kyoto would tell me to do to properly pick up my chopsticks, given that I’m left-handed, and yet it is apparently a faux pas to lay down the chopsticks pointing to the right.
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I’m thinking this would be interesting inspiration for a song by the band Pulp.

Jarvis Cocker-san.

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I live in Osaka (only lived here a year) and it is fascinating the vibe change between Osaka and Kyoto.
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It's always wild to me when I hear about how different the culture is between Osaka and Kyoto when they're so close.
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I remember being blown away when I was in a Kyoto Familymart after a few months of living in Osaka after they handed me my fried chicken very delicately with both hands like it was a business card!

I guess that’s the cultural divide that occurs when one community is fishing and trading while the other does, like, competitive perfumed calligraphy or whatever.

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Clearly they also cook and serve fried chicken.
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competitive perfumed calligraphic etiquette -- of your grandfathers!
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Similar in Spain between Andalusia doing trades since forever across the whole Mediterranean Sea vs the inner provinces (the Castille-s) and the chilly Atlantic North regions with Celtic/Basque substrates.
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Do you know how serious "chopsticks upright in rice" is? I had a Chinese teacher who mentioned the taboo (with regard to China, not Japan), but she also said that while people recognize that it's something you're not supposed to do, it's not taken seriously either.
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