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> Much like age verification

Age verification as a technical concept can be done in a privacy-preserving manner! Whether or not we want age verification is another debate, but let's stop making wrong technical claims about that: it doesn't help.

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Really, how?

At some point someone will need to issue a key, which at some point will need to be verified against known good signatures.

These signatures will also need to be kept in case of lawsuirs/enforcement, so if somebody gets access they will know you visited that site

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The trick is to define "privacy-preserving age verification" in an extremely narrow way that ignores any other privacy concerns.

For example, imagine you put the same private key into the 'secure element' of every single iphone. You use code signing so that key is only unlocked when the phone is running unmodified iOS with all security updates. You use encryption and remote attestation for the front-facing camera and face id depth sensor. You use NFC to read government-authenticated age and appearance data from biometric passport chips (or digital ID cards) and you store it on-device.

Then, when you want to access pornhub, they send an age challenge to your device, your device makes sure your face matches the stored passport, and if so it signs the challenge with the private key.

Pornhub gets an Apple-signed attestation of age - but because every phone signs with challenges with the same private key, Pornhub can't link it to a particular phone or identity document.

So in a very narrow sense, privacy is preserved.

You can't use someone else's ID, as it checks your face every time. You can't fool it with a photo of the person because of the depth sensor. You can't MITM/replay the camera/depth data because the link is encrypted. You can't substitute software that skips the check with a rooted phone because of the code signing. Security holes can be closed by just pushing a mandatory OS update.

Sure, it doesn't work on PCs. Doesn't work on Linux, or on unlocked/rooted phones. It hands users' government ID documents over to Google and Apple. It requires people to carry foreign-made, battery powered, network connected GPS trackers (with cameras, microphones and speech recognition) with them. And there are non-negotiable terms of service everyone must agree to. But if you define "privacy-preserving" to ignore all that stuff and only consider whether Pornhub learns your identity, it's privacy-preserving.

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That key will get leaked. A key that has to go into every phone, even if done at the manufacturer and onto the TPM chip, will get out.

Also even if it doesn't get leaked directly, the security of TPM chips is not absolute. Secrets from them can theoretically be extracted given an attacker with sufficient means and motivation. Normally nothing that's on a typical TPM chip would warrant a project of that magnitude, but a widely used private key can change that equation.

Plus a TPM chip doesn't really have means to tell the phone isn't being lied to. You could swap out the actual phone camera hardware and sensors for a custom board that feeds the entire phone camera data of your choosing and it would be none-the-wiser.

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Ring cryptography does this - given a public key and a set of private keys you can attest that one of the keys signed it but not which one. This lets both Google and you generate a signature and say “this is attested”, without the person verifying it knowing _who_ signed it.
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Parental controls on device are a better solution that work today and don't carry a risk of data breach.
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They would be a solution if almost all parents used them, but parents don't want to socially isolate their kids since a lot of "social" activity is now on social media. It's kind of a prisoner's dilemma.

There's not necessarily wrong. Despite the vapid and damaging nature of most popular online media, isolating a child from it might have even worse social consequences when their real-life peer groups discover that they're not on social media or that their parents have neutered their phone. Some kids would turn out fine after that. Others would be socially destroyed for life (maybe with the right therapy they could become well-adjusted, but high quality therapy is rare).

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> They would be a solution if almost all parents used them

No, they are a solution for parents who want to use them, and that's all they should be. Their existence demonstrates that it's possible to handle this without regulation, other than the desire of some people to inflict their preferences onto other people's kids.

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Are they a better solution? Yes

Do they work currently? Not really

Are they too complex for the avg joe to work out. Unfortunately yes. (Something about the smartest bears and the dumbest humans)

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It should be possible with zero knowledge proofs.

The problem is that while you might be able to trust the crypto, the government won't trust you to do the crypto entirely by yourself. And this introduces avenues for deanonymisation. Moreover, collusion between the government and the entity making the age check can also theoretically deanonimize.

It's a complicated problem.

We continue to seek a technological solution to a parenting problem.

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All states/governments have basic records on their citizens and residents, including at least a name, dob, address, etc, at least for a passport, driver's license, if not an actual id card. Let's assume this is acceptable.

Then it's technically possible (and really not that difficult) for states to provide a service that issues zero-knowledge proofs of facts like "age > X".

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With cryptography. Look at e.g. Privacy Pass, there is an RFC about it.
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https://ageverification.dev/

> Unlinkability is achieved by design through Zero-Knowledge Proof cryptography see the "Privacy by design" section below.

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Divorcing technical detail from how it is used does little good for humanity.
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worth noting that google/twitter/facebook/reddit/others colluded to combine sessions, identifiers, so that any person getting identified on any one session / ip would be identified on all

so while this comment is apt, i would ask them what they think of the previous chicxulub impact of the 2012 era collusion - which to this day has not been reported on

(just realized emacs bindings work in comments, nice, no ctrl-x tho)

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I was going to ask for more info on this collusion but you say it wasn't reported. And googling "chicxulub" just gives a volcano.

Is this speculation, or has it been confirmed somewhere?

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"Chicxulub impact" seems to be functioning as a bit of hyperbole to imply that this collusion was absolutely devastating, by analogy to the K-T extinction event 66 million years ago.

Not that I really can tell what this was devastating to. Maybe United States v. Apple (2012), where Hachette Book Group, Inc., HarperCollins publishers, Macmillan publishers, Penguin Group, Inc., and Simon & Schuster, Inc. conspired with Apple to raise ebook prices?

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I can't say for sure, but is it possible they're referring to the founding of the Internet Association in 2012?[0]

I don't think it's that, because the Wikipedia article makes it seem like it was a force for good, but at the time, it wasn't certain at all that it would be that way.[1]

Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what might be meant.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Association

[1] https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/xs4qw/google_facebo...

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Colluded how?
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If you run a website, it seems trivial to forward the attestation to someone else by putting the same code up on your website, and getting their device banned from google instead of your own.
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The domain in the attestation would be yours, so that wouldn't work
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How would the phone camera know the domain name of the website displaying the QR code it's scanning?
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The camera isn't the part doing that verification. The google service serving that "reCAPTCHA" is what's doing that validation. Unless you're using a custom browser that is reporting a different domain to google than the one requesting the reCAPTCHA, google's service will know which domain is which.
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How does the verification app on your phone know what's in the URL bar on your desktop?
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The QR code/URL would be generated/requested by the javascript running on the website you're viewing, which knows what's in your address bar.
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It would be generated by some other website like Amazon. Because I own, say, Meta, I copy these Amazon-generated codes over to Meta, make people scan them on their phones to sign into Meta and then pass the solution back to Amazon so my bots can sign into Amazon.
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We don't yet know how the client side works, perhaps there will be a decompilation posted soon.

It's possible this scenario is acceptable to them because it means they can still tie your access to something that's easier to ban without requiring a full account login.

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They're tying my access to random users of a completely different service, and a different random user each time.
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What are you implying? That it will become ineffective due to that?

That's possible... and they might change their mind if so, we will see.

I feel like it's a similar issue to when scrapers pretend to be an allowed-origin webpage in order to abuse "public" API keys for web services.

They could also require the mobile device to interact with the requesting webpage in some manner, similar to mutual PIN/codes for Bluetooth/TV pairing these days. That way bulk sharing of the codes would still require active participation from the device that requested it in the first place, likely with a short time limit.

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After you scan the code, the verification app asks you "do you want to verify for example.com?"
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If you don't verify for example.com you won't be allowed to view example2.com. So do you want to or not?
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Some people will notice, some will not
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Realistically, what Google will do in such a scenario is collect data about the illicit service, enumerate the devices the farm uses and what other activities the devices participate in. What you suggested has far less control over the devices that generate the attestations and it will show.

Also, if the implementation is competently done the phone will show the website for which you scanned the QR code. A user would be able to see whether or not that matches the site where they observed the QR code and proceed accordingly. In time Google will probably integrate it into the Chrome browser where a proxied QR code cannot even be shown.

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Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.
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That's great until it's some essential government, medical, educational, etc. service that you have either no alternative to or no alternative that isn't also using the same thing. I'm already being slowly and incrementally softlocked out of some (fortunately non-essential so far) sites either by cloudflare or other more subtle "anti-bot" networks as time goes on, including some like I've listed above. I can only expect this will continue until it's something I can't avoid.
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> That's great until it's some essential government, medical, educational, etc. service

At which point you should contact your attorney general, and work to ensure such efforts face legal challenges at every turn.

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For some reason, I'm softlocked from booking tickets from Deutsche Bahn. The website errors out with a cryptic "Your browser's behavior resembles that of a bot." message with no option to try again or pass a captcha or whatever. The website itself described several possible solutions but none helped (I tried using different computers, different internet connections, even a phone connected to internet using a SIM from a different country).

As for now, when I need to travel to Germany, I just book tickets through the national carrier of my home country, which for cross-border tickets often turns out to actually be cheaper than booking through DB. Thankfully I don't live in Germany proper and my need for travel there is not that high (once or twice a year at most) but I wonder what would I do if I had to move to Germany and use trains there more often.

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Same problem but with French equivalent SNCF (sncf-connect.com). I just checked and can confirm nothing has changed. You cannot use up-to-date Firefox on Linux to access the main booking site for French rail tickets.

    Access is temporarily restricted

    We detected unusual activity from your device or network.

    Reasons may include:

    -Rapid taps or clicks
    -JavaScript disabled or not working
    -Automated (bot) activity on your network (IP X.X.X.X)
    -Use of developer or inspection tools
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> Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.

Not solved at all: 99.999% of users don't give a damn and use a Google-signed Android.

My opinion is that because they don't give a damn does NOT mean regulations should not protect them. What Google is doing here is anticompetitive and they should be fined (antitrust and all that).

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With the new reCAPTCHA this is going to happen because most human visitors will actually be unable to pass the CAPTCHA. It will be interesting to see whether this makes websites ditch reCAPTCHA or whether they literally just don't care about having customers, an attitude that seems to be getting more and more common every day.
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I have been unable to give my money to Home Depot, REI and a growing list of online retailers because they use Akamai EdgeSuite, which just assumes I am a bot and 403s on protected API calls. This happens consistently on any IP and any browser on my Linux desktop/laptop.
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There are not enough words to describe how much I hate Akamai EdgeSuite. So many random validation loops and 403s across different physical computers, different operating systems, different connections and even countries. A couple of services I need use it and it's 30% I'll make it past their stupid "protection".
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Same, i'm doing a kitchen reno and gave up on Home Depot because of this
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It sure makes debugging headers a pain. curl -sLIXGET https://… never mind, that won’t work, _fires up browser yet again_
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Home Depot at least has a physical presence, which you can go and directly give some much-needed feedback to.
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It has a zero percent chance of reaching anyone who can do anything about it.

You could try handwriting and posting a letter to their CEO. I think that sometimes works. Probably not very often but there are more than zero CEOs who read those letters.

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The point is to spread the word.
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Maybe they'll figure it out when their revenue drops next quorter or the ones after that?

I was thinking in the same terms: you put up a QR capcha, you don't get my traffic and money. Just the amount of extra work needed, let alone the Google tracking turns me off. As if traffic lights, crosswalks and bridges weren't enough of a hassle.

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REI is allegedly a co-op, maybe there's a committee or something it could be presented to?
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REI Co-op has an Annual Members Meeting in Seattle, where it announces the results of the board of directors election. The 2026 one happened Feb 5. Apparently the presentation is only 8m long, some saying it's pre-recorded and it's near-impossible for members to submit a question that actually gets answered:

https://www.rei.com/newsroom/article/2026-rei-board-of-direc...

https://www.rei.com/newsroom/article/rei-announces-2026-boar...

https://www.reddit.com/r/REI/comments/1qw14k6/rei_hosts_thei...

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Usually that just means the owners of the individual stores are the shareholders.
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> most human visitors will actually be unable to pass the CAPTCHA

Most human visitors will never ever notice the change. reCAPTCHA is completely invisible for most human visitors because they are allowed to pass just by fingerprint.

It's not like an average user is going to have to scan a QR code every time they visit a site via web browser. If it were like this then it would be a non-issue because no sane website would adopt this system. But it isn't.

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One problem with these things is that businesses have minimal visibility on the amount of users they lose.

On the opposite, if they see reports of many visitors not completing the captcha, they're likely to think "Wow so many bots!!! This defense nowadays is indispensable..!".

Sometimes you need to pass a captcha even to contact them (if you want to tell them that you can't pass their captcha).

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I wanted to give money to charity and they have whole form protected by recaptcha. So I would have to allow all my personal information and amount donated sent to google (and agree with google terms for data processing). I have contacted them but they did not understand why this is problem they just wanted to protect themself against bots. IMHO unless those things are not disallowed by antitrust laws we have lost.
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We wouldn't want bots throwing money at us!
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i say technofeudalism, not sure i know what i'm writing about though
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Luckily the marketplace of money will ensure that businesses who block their customers shrink and businesses who don't block their customers grow.
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>> whether they literally just don't care about having customers

So every government website. Every website where people simply have no choice (DMV) or where failure to login results in them not claiming the money/benefits they are due (all tax websites). And every website handling post-sale complaints (Airlines, insurance).

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Or stop spreading this extraordinarily naive view of how the world works.
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I'd love to, but I'd not be able to visit many sites anymore thanks to Cloudflare...
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HN uses reCAPTCHA under certain conditions
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I've not hit it but that would suck.
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So what are you doing here?

> Ask HN: Did HN just start using Google recaptcha for logins? [0]

> dang

> No recent changes, but we do sometimes turn captchas on for logins when HN is under some kind of (possible) attack or other. That's been happening for a few hours. Hopefully it goes away soon.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34312937

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Yeah, live in a cave, and problem solved.

However much I hate it, right now among the sites using reCAPTCHA there are many that I strongly want to use.

Let's find a better solution please

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> Let's find a better solution please

Is there an argument here that Google is creating a monopoly?

Could this be challenged on similar grounds that forced Microsoft to recommend other browsers to users on Windows?

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There is, but at least in the US neither party cares. They want to get rid of anonymity online, one to throw anyone who googles "trans" in jail, and the other because their biggest donors are tech companies that want to denonymize everyone.

Our antitrust laws have been toothless for decades, and both parties love billionaires controlling the rest of us with an iron fist.

GrapheneOS is looking more and more worth the headache that my limited free time generally does not like. I don't need Google to know my smut fanfiction is written by my IRL.

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Felt same way about GrapheneOS but a few friends set it up so i gave it a try. It is easy to install and use. As evidence, I gave my 70 year old father one and he loves it.
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When my friend was telling me about GrapheneOS I was thinking back to the old days of android custom roms, all the bugs and bullshit, the time I couldn't dial out to 911 because my custom ROM crashes when I did, or other issues. So I gave it a pass.

However he's been on it now for months and every time he shows me something on it I get a little more jealous. Everything seems to be working fine, including e.g. bank apps, and he has interesting features like some kind of app zoning thing limiting permissions on a zone to zone basis.

The only problem is it's only available on massive phones without headphone jacks and SD card slots, so I'm sticking with Xperia for now.

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Breathlessly awaiting the upcoming Motorola/Graphene crossover phone.
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Can you run Graphene on non Pixel phones?
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Not yet. They've partnered with Motorola, though, so we'll probably be seeing some of their phones in the future that can run GrapheneOS.
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You can use Lineage [/with microG]
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sieabahlpark, I probably hate this more than you, you misunderstood
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Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.

No. Bigger problem created, since there are innumerable government, health care, and educational web sites that use reCAPTCHA.

I'm not going to give up reading the test results from my doctor because of some simplistic ideologue decides that it's "problem solved."

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The other problem with this is that there are few CAPTCHA alternatives.

CF turnstile is one, but of course that means Cloudflare owns even more of the web.

HCaptcha is inaccessible and actively discriminatory against individuals with disabilities and refuses to change, to the point that I suspect the only way that they will do anything is to file a class-action against them and sue them into the ground.

And I... Can't think of anything else. Other than to just get rid of Captchas entirely.

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The answer that no one likes: make it cost a nominal amount of money.

Enough to make it so bots are expensive to run.

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You could just have a custom one that asks domain-specific questions (and ones which will trip up LLMs are not hard to come by.) I've seen a few forums ask such questions for registration, long before the rise of LLMs.
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There are other captcha alternatives like Turnstile, for example Private Captcha, Altcha etc. - they are owned by mostly “small” independent companies, they are not visual captchas (proof-of-work based) and very accesssible.
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At least in my country (Poland) you should be able to make a pretty bug fuss and resulting in them fixing it, if indeed one of ego services made you leak all your data to Google.

People do care about such things.

I hope the same is true in other EU countries.

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Compliance is what makes all that shit possible. Sadly most people are compliant and made so by gradually increasing their dependency on "commodities" which really are anchors to a shit lake.
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Beautiful analogy, BTW.

Suddenly I have been made aware that, having lost my paddle on Shit Creek, I will eventually be taken downstream to Shit Lake (where it appears I will inevitably drop anchor).

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I agree, and I think CAPTCHA is a disservice on public websites.
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> I'm not going to give up reading the test results from my doctor

You could just call them.

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Oh just wait, the AI phone service on their side will be more than happy to complete your device attestation key challenge by touch tone. We have to make sure you are still you after all!

But in all seriousness, many services are making it difficult through to impossible to communicate outside of their web or app platforms. Call centres are expensive and messy, and it's now apparently acceptable as a society to treat customers/clients/whatever as adversaries so they can get away with making it hard to communicate with them.

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I was unable to book a doctors meeting through the clinic's website, so I declared "screw tech" and called their call center, which still worked better. The app just searched for the "first available spot" and never found anything. If they axe the call center I'm going to have to go to their place.
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Or ask for a print out.
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When companies like this exist, what is the point of relying of TPM? Looks like the future is bright for VC backed bots

https://doublespeed.ai/

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I'm assuming that's a troll / sarcasm / fake... But that could just be my last vestige of faith in humanity.

Edit: aaaand... That's another little sliver of my faith gone : https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/2026/04/how-fake-people...

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Yeah, it's real. Say goodbye, faith!
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How is this not grounds to be sued into oblivion by Google and Meta? They clearly violate ToS for profit. This is something I expect to find on a dark web forum where 0days are traded, not in public.
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This kind of thing has been common for ages. Obviously AI has kicked it into overdrive, but it’s not darkweb kind of stuff.

Note that they do not mention any specific companies on that landing page. That is pretty intentional.

But realistically going after bots is expensive and rarely successful, so most companies don’t do it. Even if you find the guy, the chances they can be legally reached are pretty low.

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> How is this not grounds to be sued into oblivion by Google and Meta?

Because they don't care. It doesn't matter that it's AI slop, it generates views. And Google and Meta can bill advertisers for those views.

Zuckerberg is paying people to put AI slop Shrimp Jesus on facebook. (Not directly to platforms like this, but with the incentive structure)

Really, they're not just cashing in on the views of AI slop being put in front of boomers. They're cashing both ways; While the low end spam industry is merely guessing and iterating on whatever generates views, the more refined spammer does not leave the performance of their latest slop post up to chance, and just uses good old viewbotting. Viewbotting that these days, is mostly done on real devices. Which show ads, to the bots or underpaid developing world workers. Google and Meta'll still charge you for those impressions though.

The losers? People who sincerely try to use these platforms, and whatever idiot businesses are still paying for ads by the impression or click, rather than conversions that immediately generate revenue.

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Violating ToS isn't illegal in most cases. Companies just put scary looking clauses in their ToS to discourage you from doing things they don't like.
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Note that all those guys were gotten for breaking the law, not for breaking terms of service.
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Why is every startup using that same Serif font now, Garamond or whatever. Is it an LLM design phenomenon? Its kinda ruining that font style for me.

Also $1,500 a month for 10 "influencers" is wild. This doesn't seem that sophisticated unless they're doing something special to increase trust scores of accounts. They say they have "in house warming algorithm" which honestly doesn't inspire confidence for me.

Whats funny is its almost a certainty (if they are doing things correctly) that they have literal farms of phones (probably in SEA). The only real way to keep trust high is to have a real mobile connection and unique devices. Proxies are okay, but you really need to use the apps on real hardware.

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I think the font is mimicking old Apple ads, eg: https://i.insider.com/5bf8592eb73c284de50e2f28
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Ahh, that makes sense.
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Yep. They got hacked in the past, 1k+ smartphones reported.

The cost is the attestation keys of a real phone. Once it gets burned, the phone is useless to them.

https://www.penligent.ai/hackinglabs/inside-the-ai-phone-far...

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Interesting article, thanks. I've done a bit of small scale phone farming (for my own cheap mobile proxies). In all reality the phones aren't that expensive, I went with Moto 5gs that cost $130 (retail), so in their case the phones pay for themselves in the first month.

Probably a decent amount of compute cost for video generation, but I'm sure they have access to free compute and inference for being in bed with a16z.

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If you are OK with carrier locks (eg if you don't need cell service) and are in the USA, you can actually get mot 5Gs for $30 at walmart. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Straight-Talk-Motorola-Moto-g-202...
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Reckless Condensed?
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These companies would have to buy one phone per fake influencer.
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Wow that is so dystopian.
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> My understanding is that this new reCAPTCHA is basically just remote attestation.

Yes, somehow "parse this QR code" would not have made my top 500,000 list of 'tasks that a human can do more effectively than a computer'.

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I'm sure some people still remember how to mentally decode QR codes and verify ECDSA signatures from Covid days. Public transit ticket inspectors in my city also seem to be quite proficient at it :)
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I don't see any requirement to support hardware attestation in the recaptcha documentation, the Play Services seem to be "enough".

I think it's most likely to be attested by Google remotely; they might be using an app (with enormous access to the phone as the Play Services have) to be able to link a ton of data together, possibly including the local activity on the phone, officially to make better humanity assessments based on it all.

For people using a Google account it probably won't make a huge difference, in terms of data collected.

If that's how it would work, spoofing would probably be theoretically possible, but it would be easy for Google to detect attestations used by multiple people.

Let's not forget that this is an update to a very approximate system, absolute security is not (yet) required.

But there's a good chance that it will be extremely hard to sidestep, despite that.

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> I don't see any requirement to support hardware attestation in the recaptcha documentation, the Play Services seem to be "enough".

Doesn't Play Integrity use hardware attestation, but specifically checking the Google keys?

If you use the Play Services on GrapheneOS, you still don't pass Play Integrity because your system is signed by GrapheneOS and not by Google.

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> they might be using an app (with enormous access to the phone as the Play Services have) to be able to link a ton of data together, possibly including the local activity on the phone

But anything your phone can possibly do in software can be spoofed, so how would that help?

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Shouldn't that be illegal under GDPR?
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There are massive exemptions for the prevention and detection of crime

And https://gdpr.eu/recital-49-network-and-information-security-... :

> Recital 49 - Network and Information Security as Overriding Legitimate Interest

> The processing of personal data to the extent strictly necessary and proportionate for the purposes of ensuring network and information security, i.e. the ability of a network or an information system to resist, at a given level of confidence, accidental events or unlawful or malicious actions that compromise the availability, authenticity, integrity and confidentiality of stored or transmitted personal data, and the security of the related services offered by, or accessible via, those networks and systems,...

It's funny how people after all this time think 99 Articles, 173 Recitals and a huge tech lobby equals a water-tight, pro-citizen, impenetrable privacy law with almost no exemptions.

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> Google didn’t demand iPhone users install Google software to pass the test.

Can de-Googled Android phones present themselves as iPhones?

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Apple has their own remote attestation infrastructure and you will not be able to impersonate an Apple device without extracting private key material from the secure enclave of a legitimate Apple device or compromising Apple certificate authority private keys.
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Can they present themselves as... web browsers?
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Yes, and then they'll get served a QR code that you have to scan on a phone Google approves of.
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