upvote
I agree with this. The general population is hopeless, they will hand literally anything away for the least amount of friction. They are also profoundly ignorant.

The solution should be to provide the tools necessary to preserve as much agency using technology to people who want to. You should also keep in mind the middle tier technical people who need a bit of hand holding. But do not waste your time on the general public because they don't share or comprehend your goals.

reply
Because Apple always did this, everybody knew this and people buy Apple exactly because of this.

Google now pulls the rug on Android which is a whole different story because it used to be open. The whole idea of Android was to be open.

reply
The biggest mistake is that people trusted a company that, in reality, isn't that different from Apple. Just because everyone claimed Android as the true open source alternative to iOS, when only AOSP was that.
reply
Yea agree. I reeeeally dont get why Google or Apple have good reputation at all.
reply
They built products people like, and specially Apple has good reputation for building reliable, long-lasting and easy to use stuff for most people, leading to a heavy user adoption. But heavy user adoption without the proper regulation and company ethics leads to, well, monopolistic practices.
reply
> Google now pulls the rug on Android which is a whole different story because it used to be open. The whole idea of Android was to be open.

This is the narrative for us in developed nations, but the majority of users today are people who were in developing countries and got a mid-tier smartphone to chat with friends and do banking with the same values as Apple users.

reply
> Because Apple always did this, everybody knew this and people buy Apple exactly because of this.

Is that really so? Does the average iPhone user actually factor the app store tax into their decision to purchase the device? Or do they just assume that is just how all software works because they have no exposure to software ecosystems outside the iPhone app store

reply
> Does the average iPhone user actually factor the app store tax into their decision to purchase the device?

As I'm the IT tech support for some family members, I certainly do. A lot less drama and garbage when using Apple products (generally speaking).

I've sysadmined Linux for a living for many moons now, and used to run Linux and then FreeBSD at home, and I switched to Apple for personal stuff during the PowerPC and early Mac OS 10.x timeframe because I did enough fiddling with tech at work and minimized it at home.

I used Linux desktops at work in the pre-COVID era when we still had offices and such. I now use a Apple laptop as I can get Unix-y tools to admin: I spend >80% of my time in Terminal (the rest in Safari and Mail).

reply
They factor in a more "clean" appstore yes. Not the tax itself but they usually appreciate apple having more polished apps in general (given that the Google Playstore is full of trash).
reply
Google play store is only full of trash if you go hunting for trash. I'd like to see the actual stats of people affected by play store malware vs malware available on the play store.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, but I am saying it's not a problem that has caused any problems with any Android user I've ever met.

reply
I am not talking about the malware, I am talking about the apps that are bloated with advertisements or try really hard to push a subscription upon you. Lots of "free" apps try to push you into a subscription once installed.
reply
> but I am saying it's not a problem that has caused any problems with any Android user I've ever met.

You are an HN user of some age. You might even be the family IT person. You may well be changing the experience of people in your orbit.

In contrast, my grandfather’s android phone had somehow 3 different SMS apps, all of which must have tried to remove the default app.

I doubt you think some chap living in rural India, has good data hygiene and habits.

reply
Yes, but most people don't realize it, simply because they have been conditioned from the beginning that the only way to run anything on an iOS device is via the app store.

With Apple customers, a better argument to make is to say that Apple applies a 30% 'tax' on all activity on their phones. That they are being forced to pay more compared to non Apple users in spite of having bought their device fair and square.

reply
Flaunting money seems to be a big selling point for many apple drones.
reply
I have been using Apple devices for almost 20 years, and I have never been forced to pay a 30% tax on all activity on my phone. I can avoid it by buying directly from the seller's website, and also I just avoid buying software subscriptions in general, but especially from the App Store.

99% of the payment activity I do on my phone (buying retail goods, travel arrangements, paying invoices) has no additional cost.

reply
You're correct. You've just paid it on every app store purchase, and every in app purchase. That's because Apple, despite trying, have failed to completely lock in the payment infrastructure.

They really want to though. Maybe consider that.

reply
I consider almost everyone really wants to earn more money, more easily.

I do not see any indication that Apple wants to get involved in adjudicating payment disputes for physical goods and services. That is high cost, high liability, low margin work. They seem to be perfectly happy letting the existing banks (aka card issuers) handle that, and getting a 0.15% cut for allowing their credit cards to use Apple Pay.

Apple has restricted themselves to being the payment infrastructure for only digital goods, and I assume that is because that is the cheaper, more scalable option.

As a side note, in the US, the proportion of sellers willing to eat the credit card fees has gone down every year, and seemingly at an accelerating pace. I have winnowed down my credit card usage to retail goods/restaurants/travel, because almost everyone else wants payment via ACH/Debit/Zelle/other option that avoids credit card fees, so I would be surprised if Apple would ever want to enter this market, given that even the 2% credit card fee transactions are not able to compete.

reply
No? Apple charges a fee on every app sale. Where do you think the app makers pay that walled garden tax?
reply
Never spent money on an app on my phone.
reply
Buying apps is hardly "all activity on a phone". It's completely inconsequential to my spend since summer of 2008, when I began using Apple products. Maybe a couple hundred dollars in total app store purchases? It would make no sense for me to base a decision about devices I use day and night over that small amount of money (30% of a couple hundred dollars).
reply
> It would make no sense for me to base a decision about devices I use day and night over that small amount of money (30% of a couple hundred dollars).

Fair enough. It might not be consequential for you, the fact remains Apple took 30% of every dollar you spent on the app store. This, after you paid a premium for Apple hardware. I'm happy the walled garden with a toll is worth it for you. All I'm saying is, others might not agree with that if they knew. Just look at the push back again tariffs as an example.

reply
> It doesn't take much to convince them that Google et al don't have their best interests in mind. They already know it and have experienced it.

I think with Apple in particular, this is the issue. Apple have largely demonstrated that they _do_ often have the users best interests in mind (or at least at some point have had) on the basis that the users are Apple’s primary customers. Yes, Apple lock down iOS functionality but this has often been to deliver innovative features. Users don’t mind that they’re in a walled garden because, they like the walled garden.

This is where Google is a different case. Google’s interests are aligned with mass data collection rather than products people love. Most Google users have experienced how this impacts them negatively at some point, usually with the degradation of their products, and constant advert spam.

Google is an example of a company that the mass majority assumes to be in the wrong. Apple often isn’t.

reply
Most people just do not think about this as much as we do.

We understand that, as the saying goes, if you're not paying for something then you are the product.

But less technical people don't consider that, and don't have hoards of technical friends to convince them otherwise. They just think: they using the product, so they're the user, right? We know that's true but it's not the same thing as customer. Most people don't have that distinction in their head.

It's even partially true that Google does want to do things that attracts and retains users, because that's a prerequisite for selling them to advertisers. In my experience, that's an upper bound on the amount of thought most non-technical people would give it.

reply
Frame it as "America will decide what you can do with your phone" and people in Europe will listen.
reply
Apple doesn't own re-captcha. Apple's walled garden is still a tragedy but its a tragedy of willing participants.
reply