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All of their issues are self-inflicted. What benefit is there to their cloud backend except getting around the home NAT? If you want to build your IoT product privacy-friendly, your cloud offering can be reduced to a STUN/rendezvous server and a proxy server as fallback [1]. Ship your devices with individual tokens to rate limit the proxy, have the STUN/rendezvous/proxy server address configurable and publish their source code for users to not be dependent on your continuous operation.

You can even go so far and have a public sub domain for each devices ( serialnumber.manufacturer.com ) which you only operate as a dumb proxy so that even the TLS certificates are negotiated end-to-end between the IoT device and Let's Encrypt. (The devices connect to your backend via Wireguard and you rate limit with their device individual key, whose public key you read out during the end-of-line production step.)

Hell, with today's browser heavy applications you can even run the whole slicer in the browser. Let the app be distributed via CDN so the code does not need to go through the proxy.

[1] In the case of non-battery operated and always or mostly on devices, like 3d printers at least.

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I dont understand what the issue is. Theres not really any benefit in having cloud enabled if local is working fine. I have my bambu printer set to local only, and dont miss the cloud offer one bit.
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There abusing the AGPL. At this point, it’s on principle.
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I imagine some (many?) people just enjoy accessing their printer over the mobile phone without setting up VPN, even if said mobile phone isn't on the home wifi.
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They have no rights to prevent people modifying and using AGPL software however they want.

They should have no rights to control how people use hardware they bought. ToS for hardware should simply be unenforceable.

People should have full rights to adversarial interoperability, even if it means modifying proprietary software or hardware.

It always surprises me when people (on this site particularly) are more interested in the law as it stands than how things could or should be.

I wonder whether tech has become so exploitative partly because so many of us have lost track of (or never understood) how important civil disobedience has always been in the process of democracy and securing our rights.

As an individual you really don’t have to follow the terms of service! You certainly don’t have to support the [ab]use of ToS, DRM and related tech to screw you at every opportunity!

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> They have no rights to prevent people modifying and using AGPL software however they want.

AGPL software can be used and modified within the limits of what the AGPL permits. People can do that with their Bambu software running on their own hardware.

That does not extend to using their proprietary BambuNetwork cloud service (somebody else's computer). The AGPL specifically mentions this scenario in section 6. There are open source alternatives to that like the third-party Bambu-Farm and bambuddy that people can self host instead.

Interestingly, Bambu's own initial approach to the AGPL was more in line with "modifying and using AGPL software however they want" (and potentially violating their section 6 obligations), until customer backlash forced them to adhere to the terms of the licence.

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Id Louis Rossman's YouTube rant is correct, nobody involved here modified the AGPLK software. They just used a version of the AGPL software from before Bambu Labs changed the auth code.

While I agree that the AGPL does not grant users any rights to Bambu's cloud service, sending DCMA nastygrams to people hosting copies on old versions of their software isn't the right (or even legal) way to enforce that. And since Bambu choose to build their products and software stack on pre existing AGPL code, they've backed themselves into a corner a bit with other options. They can add new auth to new versions of the code (which is stringer than just hardcoded useragent-like strings in the code) but they'll then have to release the source code to their new version - exactly like the original authors who chose the AGPL intended.

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> That does not extend to using their proprietary BambuNetwork cloud service (somebody else's computer)

As I said, I believe people have a right to "adversarial interoperability", so I respectfully disagree

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> many prefer to break their license agreement because They Really Want It

By "many" do you mean Bambu Lab themselves who are violating the AGPL license of Prusa slicer & predecessors with their non-AGPL, proprietary networking plugin?

They're choosing to violate the license because they don't think anyone will actually dare to sue them, and they're probably right. Ascribing some sort of moral righteousness to Bambu's actions and accusing users of breaking their license is hysterical.

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A comment defending abusive software terms on a website called HackerNews. Something amusing about that.
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If we go a little meta, there's a lot of comments doing the same thing, on plethora of submissions. It's amusing and sad at the same time.
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The AGPL covers the line of code that includes the user agent, the only "security" bambu uses.

By attempting to stop users from using their AGPL code they are behaving illegally.

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This is HP’s current philosophy towards consumer desktop inkjet and laser printing, and customers universally hate it. No thanks!
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It is my right to do with my printer whatever I want.
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The hardware yes. Bambu's software, not quite. If you want to flash it with 3rd party firmware & use 3rd party slicers, have at it.

If you want to use Bambu's software against their TOS, OK you wouldn't be alone in that, but there's no moral high ground in it.

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Sure there is. When purchased, it was able to do something. Due to an update, the customer has now been misled, because a feature was removed.

In most countries, that would violate consumer rights. There's an ethics argument here.

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That's a highly creative interpretation of events. The software license agreement usually upfront covers what can or cannot not change. It is pretty rare in most countries to see successful legal action for changed features, but best of luck.
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The ACCC is more than happy to explain unenforceable terms, if you'd like to do business with Australia.

Feel free to consult Steam, Google, Meta and others, if a software license is enough to ignore consumer rights.

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I look forward to them sternly changing Bambu Labs' practices!
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They will just fine them into oblivion; they are known to fine companies AUD10M to AUD50M for this sort of thing, and from 1st April this year they can now fine up to AUD100M.

Will this mean that Bambu will withdraw from the Australian market? Possibly maybe probably, but the ACCC takes a very hard stance against bait and switch.

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It's a whole lot better than the US, but AUD100M isn't enough to scare a lot of companies. A law with real teeth would go after an increasing percentage of their revenue for each offense.
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The largest ACCC fine to date for a company undertaking anti consumer practices is $483m against an educational provider for misleading students.

I'd be reasonably happy to lodge a complaint if I could find a version that's reasonably articulated. As a Bambu customer in Australia I switched my printer to local mode and its been great.

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Australia is a small enough market to not matter much
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Australian customer protection laws were the initial reason why Valve introduced refunds into Steam.
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Then why did those company fight, and not just leave...?

Worth pointing out also that the US is the odd one out, here. Europe also enforces consumer rights.

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A small, more ethical company filling the void Bambu Lab left can grow much faster and eat into Bambu's market share in a relatively short time.

Yes, it's not as simple as that, but it's not that impossible either.

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The only place you can change contracts at will on the company side is the US, and even there it probably depends on the state.

This kind of firmware update to remotely disable feature is also illegal in the EU

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Taking functionality away from a product after you bought it is a scum move. If the law lets them get away with it, the law should be changed.

When I buy a product, I look at reviews and make my purchasing decision on the features and functionality at the time of sale. If a software update later ruins that, I want the option to get my money back.

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No, it’s not creative at all, it’s what happened — I have first hand experience to corroborate this.

Regardless, at least in the US, not only are software-based ToS becoming unenforceable, but there’s a large upswing towards “right to repair” legislation, which, I think, is what you’re arguing against here… and I really think you’re going to be on the wrong side of history with your current line of thinking (despite what Bambu Labs does).

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No, it is with you -- the legislators are doing "fine" (and, again, are heading in a fine direction wrt RTR and software ToS).

I have no idea why you think copyright violations apply here? You seem to be throwing legal terms around without regard for their actual meaning. It's clear you're here to argue for the sake of argument, but I'd really encourage you to reflect and think about why you're so loyal to a corporate entity instead of your fellow consumers (of which there are many in the parent and sibling comments... hint: you may be on the wrong side).

Just for fun, pretend you bought a propane grill for cooking on Monday. On Tuesday, you cooked some bbq chicken and some corn. Later on Thursday, and without your knowledge or authorization, the grill no longer allowed you to use the propane apparatus for cooking non-meats unless you call a special telephone number and said a magic word whenever the call was answered. As a minimum, I feel, it'd be very confusing because, even though you're doing the exact same thing as Tuesday, the outcome is not the same.

Your freedoms have been restricted by someone else; if you are okay with that, then have fun licking boots. The rest of us will still be here advocating for your freedoms.

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The license agreement being the AGPLv3?
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The "agreement" is at best coerced, and under blackmail of hardware you bought and paid for.

At worst, its a fraudulent indefinite rental masquerading as a 'sale'.

And lets discuss 'updates that fuck over your hardware'. In dwcent countries, thats hacking, and a serious criminal charge. But lol, companies are somehow exempt.

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"Bambu's software" is forked from an AGPL project and is therefore itself AGPL. I have a right to fork, modify, and use it how I wish subject to the terms of the AGPL. Bambu's TOS is irrelevant. Their TOS is superceded by the terms of the AGPL.
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Its the people's software though, used under AGPL by Bambu. It never was Bambu's software.
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Maybe legally, but morally “you have permanent physical access to this but don’t ’own’ it” and anti-circumvention are debatable.

There’s a small benefit of anti-circumvention where businesses sell hardware for cheaper with restrictions and a TOS that prevents bypassing them. But even that doesn’t apply here because Bambu changed the software after purchase.

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Isn't their software based on AGPL'd code?

If so, then yes, the software too

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> If specific terms in a contract are unfair, they are not binding on you and the trader may not rely on them.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treat...

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There's absolutely a moral high ground in it. That's the point.

Nobody is arguing against Bambu's legal right to be arseholes.

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This reminds me of RMS and GPLv3. Now I personally don't use GPLv3, but this here is literally a case-in-point, and it is not even only limited to the "cloud-only". Because this now includes a company threatening to sue a developer. If they sue one developer, they, by proxy, sue all of them in principle. So RMS was kind of right.

> If you want to use Bambu's software against their TOS

How does the TOS get involved here? I don't use their TOS. Why would or should they be able to enforce it? Note that it also depends on the jurisdiction. For instance, Microsoft's EULA never had any legal bearings in the EU.

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ESL? look up the definition of the word moral
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> it's their right to enact that restriction on their software

The issue here is less "they put in a restriction" and more "they are trying to bankrupt/imprison consumers for daring to modify the property they purchased."

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> Bambu is trying to bankrupt/imprison their customers? Big if true!

I could interpret this three ways:

1. It's a reflexive double-down "nuh uh" denial, with no deeper cause.

2. You jumped in without knowing the risks that people (regular non-rich ones, anyway) face from lawsuits or CFAA charges, and you assumed the OrcaSlicer maintainer abandoned their project just to be polite.

3. You're whining that Bambu lawyers were "forced" to make disproportionate threats with nonsense logic. (Which isn't a huge step up, because it means they're still telling threatening lies for their own benefit.)

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Have they threatened financial pressure? The answer to this question is: yes.

Legal representation typically has a cost associated to the individual, unless you have the state put down a lawyer for you. You could assume that bankrupting may not be the primary goal by Bambu Lab, but it most assuredly can be an associated outcome, in particular if your income is comparatively low. I don't think sarcasm is appropriate here.

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