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There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.
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I trust that you are able to translate yourself

https://www.ae.dk/debatindlaeg/2023-05-staerke-fagforeninger...

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There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs.

Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all.

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There are plenty of studies backed by plenty of data to support exactly these assertions.
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There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs.

Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all.

A union's job is to protect the union. Nothing else.

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I would be interested to understand more about what you think unions and organisation have done for working rights over the last 100 years.
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That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic. One can agree that unions, in the past, have helped workers, and also understand that they are not always in the best interest of the general public. It's complex, but possible!
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Then that is an argument to reform and innovate on unions, not do away with them altogether.
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"Are unions net benefit for the general public" and "whether reforming or abolishing the unions is the best course of action for the general public" are two separate questions. The unions could be beneficial (and still a reform could improve this benefit) or they could be harmful (but a reform could make them beneficial without abolishing them). The original claim was they are beneficial right now, in heir current form, but no actual proof had been provided.
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Is Rockstar try to ban unions? Or just deciding they don't want to work with one. Those are very, very different things.
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I’m not talking about Rockstar, I’m talking about your implied position.
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That's something a flat-earther or antivaxxer would say.
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> but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over.

We'll see. It's not like police unions are making life better for citizens.

Unions are there for one reason, the union members. This will most likely be good for the employees and good on them for acting in their best interest but it seems just as likely that a unionized rockstar is negative for the consumer in either increased pricea, extended timelines or minimum effort to meet exact requirements from employees.

The benefits that workers gain from unionizing come from somewhere.

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I would happily pay extra money for GTA 6 if it goes to improving working conditions. It's only negative for the consumer if the consumer views life as a zero sum game.
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I agree with you, but I think most people don't. People generally hate paying for software and the $60->$70 standard AAA game pricing got a lot of people (my well paid friends included) complaining. Even if it was very clearly said that it is the cost of a well paid and respected team behind the game, I think most people won't care.
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> It's not like police unions are making life better for citizens.

which is precisely why many union advocates argue that police should not have unions. the police exist as the physical arm of the capital class in direct opposition to the labor class. they are class traitors. police unions are not the same.

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Police unions aren’t labor unions and are illegal in many countries including Japan.

https://theconversation.com/why-police-unions-are-not-part-o...

Notably, American police (the country that invented police unions) are a modern invention that largely exist as a output of slave catching and bounty hunting services.

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The police union in my city, in a state that borders Canada and fought against slavery, was founded in 1915. I'm guessing they would be surprised to learn that they are a "modern invention" that was from "slave catching" (I guess they do time travel?) and "bounty hunting services". I'm not even sure how you can say something is both a "modern invention" and the "output of slave catching". There's nothing modern about them and being the "output of slave catching" makes them definitionally not "modern".

Police unions act just like every other union does: in the interests of their members.

Unions are illegal in lots of the world. Federal public sector unions weren't legal in the US until the 1960s. Did the fact that they were illegal in 1965 have any bearing on whether or not they should be allowed? Does the fact that something is illegal in the US have any bearing on whether or not Japan should allow it?

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Modern being post Industrial Revolution
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> Police unions aren’t labor unions

I'd really like to know what kind of tangled logic it requires to believe that.

Regardless, police unions aren't the only example of unions who have worked against the benefit of everyone else but themselves. I only used them as an example because I didn't think anyone here would argue disagree that it's had negative outcomes.

What I didn't expect was to find someone arguing that a union wasn't a union. It doesn't matter if it's legal in other places, it's legal in the US. Just because Japan has made police _unions_ illegal doesn't make an US police _union_ not a union.

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Anti-unionists are here to tell us that consumers might possibly suffer. Higher prices and delays on a video game. Which has not seen a release in this series in half this century so far.

For all this consumer cares, great. Make it 20% more expensive. Make it 50% more expensive. A hundred. If that helps the greater union cause I can take more walks in the woods to pass the time instead.

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What a luxury you have to spend so much money on things, then. Hint: most people don't live that way.
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Well, given that computer games are not essential goods, most people could survive perfectly well without these so-called luxuries. Or is it only fairly produced luxury goods that are considered a luxury, while exploitatively produced luxury goods are simply treated as the standard way people live?
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Hint: maybe they would if they would unionize themselves.
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Or :gasp: take less profit. The game will take in Billions especially if they release new versions like GTA5 over time.
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That will negatively affect shareholders which is the opposite of the employees' job. Maximizing the value of the stock to shareholders over time.
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I hope you tip your earnings back to corporate and organize your peers to suppress your wages
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Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized.

What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?

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The unionised Openreach in UK who are really the de facto layer 1 network provider telco build infrastructure to a staggeringly higher quality than most of the move fast startup alternatives.

Aviation unions force very high standards and represent a lot of the developments in safety and procedures.

Nuclear power is heavily unionised, resulting in a very stable and highly qualified workforce.

Unions in film and tv have done great work defending artists rights and protecting actors, writers, crew, and others from predatory behaviour by studios.

Fire fighter unions stand against unsafe demands and protect the crews in ways the individuals can’t, resulting in meaningful change. (I’m aware of UK but projecting and assuming this applies internationally)

I could go on…

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> Aviation unions force very high standards and represent a lot of the developments in safety and procedures.

Boeing joined the chat.

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The company that does union busting to cut labour costs?
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I see the benefit of a union for the workers, but your examples seem strange. They do not illustrate that a union somehow results in a better product.

If that were self evident how come there has never been a company that started with employees unionized? To get this supposed benefit

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They’re called cooperatives

Mondragon is a extremely large well structured cooperative that did exactly this and is a hallmark of success for anarchist cooperatives worldwide

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It's a bit reversed, labor unions are cooperatives, not the other way around, as cooperatives are more flexible in arrangement than unions.

Don't disagree with the rest of the comment though.

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Japanese auto workers have been unionized since the 60s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automob...

In fact part of the SCAP mandates after World War II two during the MacArthur occupation was specifically to form powerful unions in Japan

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Interesting - but seems like Toyota in particular had their cars produced by non unionized group producing workers at least for some period:

https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-t...

Seems hard to compare since there is no comparison in Japan that is not unionized

But given that China is now winning my original point stands

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Hey as long as you can find a reason you are right, that’s really what all life is about right?
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Huh? Are you projecting something here?
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Correlation != causation. There are a ton of differences between the US car industry and those in other countries, unionization is just one factor.

As a counter anecdote I’d point to Boeing’s non-union facilities, which have produced notably less reliable airplanes than their union locations ever did.

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Aren’t most boeing made by unionized workers? If by both that seems like a good comparison to make
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Is there any reason to believe North American cars wouldn't be even worse if there weren't unions?
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Hello, long-time automotive EE here… The absolute insanity I’ve seen from the UAW would make your fucking head spin right off. It took me a LONG time to accept it.

Ignore my first hand experience with your political ideology, it doesn’t bother me.

But, I’ll tell you I’ve been at on-site RVs and BBQs with dozens of on the clock workers. I know a guy making 80/hr to nap and watch TV in his RV for six of his eight hour shift, and this was not uncommon. I know him, because he is THE GUY that can get a vital operation checked out and no one else.

I’m not debating history or ideology. Just experience of a long time working adjacent to UAW.

When I go to on-site to Mexico it’s like an entirely different industry.

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