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I've had this same policy since before AI. I kind of formalized it for myself (and this team) after enough instances of "I'm trying to do X. It's not working. Help." type messages.

You need to put as much effort into the question as you expect someone to put into the answer.

It's not "fairness" or "AI" or anything else, it's that doing this any other way fundamentally fucks up the team dynamics.

You have a problem. You want someone's help. If the cost to you is effectively nil (or negative, since you're asking someone to do your job for you), but the cost to the other person is non-zero, then incentives aren't lining up here. Pretty quickly that person is going to start carrying too much load and become a bottleneck.

It can also mask that the context of the work is too concentrated in one person, and does little to nothing to help build that elsewhere in the team.

The other end of this is exactly what you're saying--put as much effort into the answer as they put into the question. You're not doing anyone a service by taking their low effort input and giving them high effort output, least of all yourself. If someone asks "how do I X", that's low effort. If you happen to know the answer off the top of your head, spare a few sentences to explain or point them where in the code they need to be. If you don't know, don't go track it down for them.

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I’d add that it’s basic respect and decency for your fellow humans who are paying for the attention with their own life.
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> after enough instances of "I'm trying to do X. It's not working. Help." type messages.

Related to this, I will never for the life of me understand why people think it's okay to say "I get an error" without saying what the error is.

I don't expect a non-technical person to understand the error, but I do expect a non-technical person to know that what the error message is is useful to the person trying to help you and to proactively provide the contents of the error message, even if it's a shitty cell phone picture of the error.

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I don’t formalize anything that extreme for my teams because I can’t diagnose people, but I know that things like anxiety, imposter syndrome and a whole wack of things that aren’t related to work get involved. It’s acceptable to ask for help. I like to know what people have tried but sometimes they don’t know how to start. And that’s a great place to start.

I guess we all have different styles but some may be more inclusive than others.

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How the problem and request are presented matter. "I don't know where to start" is a different problem than "I've done nothing, just solve this for me." And how someone shows an effort was made will vary person to person, so I agree a strict formalized set of rules doesn't make sense. The concept boils down to "expect people to put forth some effort of their own"

"Teams" are also going to have different dynamics than "strangers on a help forum."

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These kinds of principles are sensible at their core, and I am a big proponent of the mindset, but the main problem as a sibling comment pointed out in a way is that this assumes that everyone is striving for an honest and accurate correlation between display of effort and value, and that everyone is looking deep enough into and behind that display to recognize the true value behind it. But actual effort, let alone value, is not always clearly visible or honestly displayed, and the perception of it is also subject to your own biases.

You could say that people have the responsibility to demonstrate that they put in the effort and created value, but then you get the situation where people naturally optimize perception of effort or value over actual effort or value, because in the end that is what is rewarded. Then you can also say that people also have the responsibility to look a bit closer before estimating real value, but that takes more effort and people naturally strife towards efficiency. I would guess that the problem today is that the balance between these two is off, and we're doing too much of the former and too little of the latter.

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an honest and accurate correlation between display of effort and value

Hmmm. Your choice of words here has just sparked a realization for me.

Before you said this, I was completely on board with the original post. But in juxtaposing effort with value, it illustrates that we're basing the idea on the Labor Theory of Value. That idea seems intuitive, and Adam Smith wrote about it 250 years ago. But it turns out that LTV is very wrong. Economists showed that effort does NOT impart value.

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Labor theory of value is a Marxist idea, not an Adam Smith idea. Internet Marxists sometimes point to a passage in The Wealth of Nations to suggest that Smith also supported a labor theory of value, but this is—in the most generous interpretation—a misreading. Smith says that the value of a thing can be measured by how much labor it can be exchanged for: an exchange theory of value, not a labor theory of value (which says the value of a thing is based on how much labor it takes to create).
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I mostly agree with your criticism of my post. I was being generous trying to avoid being inflammatory here, since I know there are readers that strongly support socialist ideas (in the strict sense, not just the "safety net" sense). It was certainly Marx that pushed it so hard.

But researching this a bit, I find that it still predates Marx. I find:

Sir William Petty, 1662: "If a man can bring to London an ounce of Silver out of the Earth in Peru, in the same time that he can produce a bushel of Corn, then one is the natural price of the other."

More important, it seems that David Ricardo (a big name in economic history), in 1817 latched onto what Smith had written and states it quite definitively.

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Use value or exchange value?
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I’d push back on this, I think people have a very intrinsic sense of what is valuable and often if you think it’s “perception” of value being rewarded, it’s just that you value something different than that person.

Even in performative scenarios, like say someone gets promoted at work over another person because they are a great “performer” and always make noise, whereas the other actually delivers - they’re being promoted because the promotion is defensible and legible for their superior. That is true value for them, just not to another viewer.

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I experienced a similar interaction recently, where this principle was hard to apply, when I was emailing with a CTO / hiring manager who had some "deeper" screening questions. It was essentially:

1. HM: AI generated email with "tailored" questions

2. Me: AI assisted response with answers (I confess)

3. HM: AI generated email with a "thoughtful" response + invite

4. Me: AI generated "thank you & looking forward" response ...

Looking back at the thread, I have to laugh and cry at the same time. It's so obvious and sad.

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> Someone on HN responding to you with single-sentence responses? Either don't respond, or respond in kind.

"I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter." - Blaise Pascal.

The length of the response doesn't indicate effort.

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This is true if you're writing a letter about a difficult topic.

For HN comments, 99.9% of the time, a short comment is a low effort one and should be disregarded.

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on the other hand, when I see a long post here I assume it’s yet another ego-driven tirade and skip past it.
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> yet another ego-driven tirade

I tried to recall the last time I saw what I felt was an ego-driven tirade on HN comments, and I'm currently drawing a blank. There's a lot of what's called "performative erudition", and there is the occasional lengthy diatribe, but I would call neither one of those ego-driven tirades.

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long, low: copypasta; rant; sales; slop.

(brevity, purposeful /s).

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For him, the cost of editing was much larger. Condensing your writing in his time meant rewriting it more concisely, requiring strictly more time than collecting his thoughts as he went.

With LLM's, we are in a new state of the world: it can expand any one sentence off hand remark in an essay.

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You seem to be talking about how one can expand information into useless babbling, whereas you are responding to a comment about condensing information into true essence.
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This is about human attention and what is worth getting it. Both points are very important and valid.
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Sure; I was using shorthand. Sometimes a whole edifice of ideas rests on one shaky one; and if you can challenge that one the whole thing falls apart. But even being able to identify the shaky one demonstrates engagement. That's really the key.
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There are obvious exceptions to that rule. Laconic phrases are short but have a lot to them, while AI slop is long while having very little to it. But it's a decent rule of thumb when considering the middle of the bell curve.
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Couldn't agree more.
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> Give a cursory answer

That may be enough in some cases.

Sometimes people are not looking for fully fleshed out high-effort answers. They want a pointer (to documentation, or a repo) to get going from someone more experienced.

Google search may throw up too much information and it is hard to make a choice. A one sentence answer from an expert may be enough to set them on the right path.

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From the other side, there have been brief tutorials for many years about how to ask useful questions in a technical forum. Making hundreds of other people fish for details about your case is poor form.

https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/how-to-ask-good-technical-... is a pretty good example.

Going back more than two decades is ESR’s “How to Ask Smart Questions”. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

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AI has collapsed the cost of producing content while leaving the cost of reviewing, verifying higher imho. This has inverted the economics of collaboration. Reviewer attention, not output volume, is now the scarce resource, this happened with my engineering teams (PR reviews) and is now happening in my world in Product.
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In some cases there's also no preparation or verification happening at all, which massively inflates the productivity gains of AI. Lots of VCs and investors asking companies to move into "trust the AI" mode.

I once consulted for a company in the content marketing business that was one of the largest and fastest growing startups of its country. The content production in itself was "cheap", a dollar for 500 words. But it collapsed, due to the unbearable amount of people required to review

Now virtually all content is generated by AI and the old customers don't have anyone to verify anymore.

Companies are made of people who are shitty to each other but trust machines blindly.

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This has been my policy for a couple of decades. When somebody posts just a bare link (especially if it's to a video), I refuse to click. If it's not worth your time to introduce why something is relevant, then it's not worth my time to go figure that out.
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> Either don't respond, or respond in kind.

!

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> Someone on HN responding to you with single-sentence responses? Either don't respond, or respond in kind.

Or, depending on the context, perhaps give a thorough enough answer with citations that it should either answer questions on the topic fully or explain where anyone interested in the topic can do their own research, such that if the question is asked again one could just link to your previous post.

This might not satiate a poster if they're dumb enough, but it's worth remembering that the post will be searchable and usable for reference by other people.

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Yup. The most concise version I've heard of this, which I find useful for many situations, is:

"If it isn't important to you, it isn't important to me."

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"Use your brain before you use mine"
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It takes considerable energy to train models and run inference. You can't dismiss AI generated content as "low effort", but you can dismiss it as a wasteful diversion.
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That's like saying that low effort human-generated posts are worth your time because the phones and computers they're writing on take a lot of time and effort to build from scratch.
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The person copy-pasting an AI response is generally not the person who trained said AI. Even if the total amount of effort is fairly large, the amount of effort put in by the person you're actually interacting with, is generally small.
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Back when people would train Markov bots on IRC that was actually something novel for the first 30 minutes and you could appreciate it because they put in the work
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You can’t take credit for other people’s work to displace the absence of your own
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Way to miss the point. Bob on the other side of the room didn't train the model
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@dang it's too bad the most interesting single comment in this whole thread is grayed out. as much as i love reading the same thing written 1,200 different ways, maybe the whole system needs to be revisited
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