upvote
True but also... she wasn't a software engineer putting code in production nor a researcher working no the fundamentals of machine learning negotiating a raise.

She was part of the "Ethical Artificial Intelligence Team" of what was then, and still is now, one of the corporations World wide spending the largest amount of resources precisely on using AI commercially.

reply
I'm saying the paper itself wasn't a bombshell or even that noteworthy. The reason it got PR and continues to come up was because the authors manufactured this self-inflicted drama around it, not because it was leaking secret revelations that harmed the company.
reply
Never underestimate the power of a catchy title that resonates with the intuitions and preconceptions of people who will never read the paper.

Cf. https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/illusion-of-think...

reply
Timnit got popular because she was part of Woke 1.
reply
I think part of it is she had excellent PR skills and a dedicated fan base. I was at Google when she quit, working in ML, and hadn't heard of her until the story broke. I remember there were a large number of Memegen posts about it, but no one I spoke with knew about her, so I assumed it was brigading.

I think she's since since lost a lot of her allure, especially when she didn't change her mind when the facts about the AI water usage changed 1000x

reply
deleted
reply
What exactly are the facts about AI water usage? I have trouble separating hysteria from reality but most of what I see still claims water usage is enormous
reply
I like this summary https://www.andymasley.com/writing/the-ai-water-issue-is-fak...

And this is a reply to her comment about water usage where it becomes clear she's not arguing in good faith. https://x.com/AndyMasley/status/1990498830131888173

reply
The hysteria around water usage rests on people not knowing the scale of industrial civilization. First thing to do is compare any estimate of data center water usage with the water usage of almond farming. Or, if you want to focus on individual consumer choices, the water footprint of eating a hamburger.
reply
Or even better: the footprint of doing something like farming corn for ethanol
reply
Nice false dichotomy you got there there, might as well calculate the entire water usage for a a single GPU in the supply chain too. Something tells me one is extremely worse than the other when you account for all the water that's used in a single supply chain for high end electronics, but if you want to plop the measuring stick where ever along the whole pony show that makes you look better people will notice.

Also to compare growing food with the totally optional, not useful in the slightest, LLMs that somehow demand local populaces bend to their will for reasons that never seem to benefit them is just bonkers level of self-blinding when it comes to populations absolutely despising big tech, big tech leadership, and big tech practices.

This mania might finally cause the software industry to become a highly regulated with licenses similar to that of other engineering disciplines due to amount of optional destruction they have decided to unleash upon on the planet in such a short time frame.

reply
Breaking it down this way is a great way to minimize the numbers so that it appears reasonable.

See? Middle-Eastern investors are growing alfalfa in the western desert using legal allotments of water! That is so much worse than what we’re doing! Go after them!

They can both be using an egregious amount of water for silly purposes.

The other part of the water debate is also the pollution different systems create. Many data centres went in with the promise of closed-loop systems but changed half-way through construction and couldn’t be stopped.

I think it’s more complicated than, “they’re wrong, it’s just hype.”

reply
Putting things into perspective is not minimising the problem. We literally have to do this to prioritise where our efforts can be useful.

Your argument makes sense if ai datacenters were using something close to like alfafa farming but the difference between them is soo massive it does not make sense.

Reducing pollution is a much better problem to fight for

reply
I am guessing (not asserting) that there is a sort of cap on water used for agriculture. It's possible we've already reached it. (?)

So, on the matter of scale: there likely isn't a cap on water use of these datacenters. Both the heat emission and usage levels for these systems will likely go up unless there is a fundamental technical breakthrough.

On the matter of utility: As a sibling of GP mentioned, the utility of food is clear.

On the matter of polution: I am not remotely read on waste water and contamination due to industrial agriculture. Is this also something where the judgmental scale is tipped in favor of food production vs cooling systems?

reply
reply
How do you know this doesn't suffer from Gell-Mann Amnesia? The first version had so many glaring errors that have been "corrected" (removed), and I don't have the energy to comb through this one.

I am highly skeptical of layperson debunking like this.

reply
What is interesting about it for me is: why would someone working on AI ethics choose to work for Google at all?

Did she really think Google cares about ethics? Such positions seem purely performative, we all know that ethics go out the window first to make room for more profits.

reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25324263

She was well known to be toxic and extremely exploitive of victim privilege

reply
I missed that thread when it came out, it's really a wild read. The difference between how people describe her vs how she's normally portrayed in the media is really startling
reply
People generally get fed the stories they already believe to be true

So that's why "Brave minority woman unfairly fired by evil AI corporation" sells better than "Self-entitled minority woman is terrible bully to colleagues"

reply
Her demands included wanting to know the identities of anyone who wanted to comment on her paper, after she had a history of going after people publicly. That's enough right there, nobody should tolerate toxic behavior regardless of whether you agree with the politics.

Meanwhile, the paper has 2 points of criticism towards AI. 1 is a bunch of carbon consumption complaints assuming NVIDIA cards with coal-fired power, while a lot of effort at contemporary Google went towards getting TPUs running on green power. I suspect this was what people wanted to object to, a lot of effort went into those green power projects and she was just denying it. The complaint seems prophetic now but it was not true about Google then.

The other criticism was about which language the LLMs use, they average the input data of normal humans instead of talking the way the paper author thinks they should talk. The phrase "women doctors" is called out as problematic. I'm less inclined to think people objected strongly to this given the zeitgeist at the time, it was probably people who worked on the green energy projects and were pissed off that their contributions were ignored, but still, nobody elected her Queen of English, she can have her opinions but she's not a victim for not having them adopted by everyone.

reply
One of the key points of that paper is that the body of written works is biased and those biases will be amplified by compressing that body into LLMs, with outlier data, with low coincidence rate, being suppressed as unreliable - data that is structurally dissimilar to the bulk is noise. Similarly to how PageRank suppressed nodes with low number of edges, probably contributing significantly to the homogenous corporate mall-internet we enjoy today.
reply
I think this is completely misleading. If your employer asks to redact your paper because it ignores relevant research, naturally you want to know what research they are talking about and on what grounds, and also which researches reviewed the paper (probably assuming there was none, review process was used as an excuse to silence criticism, G has done it many times).

(BTW, quite bold to say input data from Reddit and 4Chan is how “normal” people speak. There is a lot of language in the training data of any model you really do not wish your application to use ever.)

reply
deleted
reply
Ugh. Ok if you're going to push one-sided propaganda I'll push the other side.

Google forced its researchers to retract an already submitted paper because it undermined its strategic and commercial story around large language models. The "we just accepted her resignation" is just a lie. Google made harsh demands with opaque reviewers that made vague objections, and then Jeff Dean moved very quickly to get rid of Gebru. Other Google researchers reported that they usually got to work through objections, Gebru got no such opportunity. Google showed that AI labs will not tolerate internal research that seriously criticizes technology central to its business.

reply
Dean pulled a sweet Dungeon Master move in "accepting her resignation." She should have made them fire her, esp for ostensibly doing the job she was hired to do.
reply
I'm surprised that people still take Gebru seriously. She is a disgrace to the community because she always, I mean literally always, attacks her critics by motives. You think bias is a data problem? You're a bigot (See her dispute with LeCun). You disagree with my assessment on an ML model? You are white male oppressor (her attacking a Google's SVP). Oh, did I mention that she even said that some loss functions are more racists than others on X?

Gebru is not a researcher. She is a modern-age Trofim Lysenko, who politicizes everything and wields political correctness as a weapon to purge any dissent.

reply
Pressuring an employee to add unethical behavior or specific religious practices to their job description is constructive termination.

I'd say what's under debate is whether uncritical LLM adoption is mainly unethical or mainly religious.

reply
This is not why she was fired and wouldn't have been a plausible reason in 2020 when it happened.

>Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date. We accept and respect her decision to resign from Google.

This is Google's side of it; I think the following is a fair piece of primary-source journalism if you want to go deeper:

https://www.platformer.news/the-withering-email-that-got-an-...

reply
I don't see why it's those are the only two options, nor why they are even mutually exclusive.
reply