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> What's funny is that humans do this too, but we don't find it irritating; we just call it a speaking style. But when a machine does it, it drives us crazy. Very interesting psychological phenomenon there.

When a human does it, it's identifying. Like the timbre and dynamics of their spoken voice itself, It distinguishes them from the dozen other people you're working with on the project and the thousands of people you encounter through your days. It's signal

But when we have a handful of popular models, and they answer every question everybody has, and get quoted and forwarded everywhere, and are used to reformat and rephrase personal communication... that signal becomes noise.

Rather than voices disinguishing sources in the cacophony of our lives, everything and everyone starts to sound the same, and we lose key information that we're biologically and culturally accustomed to relying on.

Some people are likely unbothered by this in the way that some people are face blind or colorblind, and so don't see the problem. But as we see in discussions like this, many many people do get bothered by it, even if they don't yet have the insight as to put their finger on why.

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You could say it works perfectly well, it is identifying indeed. Of Claude and of people who use Claude's raw output instead of expressing themselves.
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It drives us crazy because everyone is using the same 2-3 different machines. So rather than each person having their own unique speaking style, the whole world (or, everyone that publishes direct LLM output) is now speaking in the same couple of styles.

And these machines all tend to converge on very similar styles; they have huge amounts of overlap in training data (much of it being already obnoxious internet marketing), they frequently train on each others outputs, and the RLHF process has a tendency to emphasize certain kinds of "cheap win" styles of speech.

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Humans are capable of introspection, so, if you develop a verbal tic, you might eventually notice and say to yourself "I've used the word 'load-bearing' (or whatever) a bit too often lately, maybe I should try to cut down on it?". LLMs are not...
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We do find it irritating at times. Office jargon, corporate buzzwords, etc. Claude communicates like the worst, most irritating project manager I’ve ever worked with, obscuring the most straightforward conclusion with layers upon layers of stuff so that its point is almost lost. I’ve largely gotten it to avoid that behavior with me, but bits of it sneak through. It couldn’t stop talking about “scaffolding” for a few weeks before I hammered it into submission.

Edit: fixing a dumb meatbrain typo

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> What's funny is that humans do this too, but we don't find it irritating

I make fun of people all the time for shoehorning their favorite phrase into every context where it doesn't apply.

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Wow sounds like you're streets ahead.
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Streets ahead has to earn its keep.
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Fascinatingly, I'm now so allergic to certain LLM-phrases that I immediately noticed your use of Not X but Y in this comment. Maybe that was intentional, maybe not, but it's a funny illustration of how odd this language rabbit hole has been!
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It's really frustrating, because now when I want to write something like a "not X but Y" or "you're absolutely right," I have to stop and decide if I want to self-censor to avoid sounding like a bot.

Sometimes those constructs are actually useful, but man has their overuse really killed them!

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It was not intentional, and that's what makes this thing so weird. I wouldn't categorize my sentence that way because it's subtly different enough than the LLM version, which has a very punchy cadence.
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Sounds good, thanks for your response. I didn't mean to denigrate your word choice at all, it's mostly that I'm hypersensitive to that kind of phrasing now because there's so much auto-written stuff on e.g. Substack, LinkedIn, etc. Sam Kriss has a nice article about it all.
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Are you using the tools a lot and having first-hand exposure that gives you this sensitivity to phrasing? Or are you reacting to second-hand exposure? To a large degree, I've been isolating myself from the LLM craze. I have zero natural interest or impulse to prompt an LLM and read the results. Almost all my exposure is second-hand and involuntary. So, I haven't trained myself to know what phrasings are typical of which LLM product.

I don't feel as triggered LLM phrasing as people report here. At most, it feels like the same inane corporate jargon I've rolled my eyes at for my whole career. Perhaps it is amped up a bit, with too many forms of jargon multiplexed? It's a bit like when multilingual people code-switch too rapidly or even start to form some pidgin language. However, it is lacking the shared social context for this switching to be communicative. It's a bit more like spinning the dial on an old radio with random cuts between programming styles.

Stripped bare, I think What bugs me is the aggravated feeling that I am wading through word salad, and no longer being able to give the purveyor the benefit of the doubt. It was frustrating enough in the past, when it came from someone who was struggling to write or express themselves well. But now, it carries the implicit insult that they didn't even try, and it is constant and unrelenting.

So for me it's not the phrasing, it's that the phrases eventually don't add up. The meandering feels like a random walk. I get the same feeling from a lot of the egregious generated code I see in my day job. It's all superficial window dressing, but seems to miss the signature of an actual mind grappling with ideas and having intent to communicate.

It feels like we're trapped in some elaborate conceptual art piece, confronted by impenetrable symbolism. It invites nihilism but doesn't seem to actually reflect an artistic intent. The abyss gazes back...

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Language is already a lossy map, but it is not really an expression of another person's thought or mind if they translate it through an LLM. Or at least it's a much harder to decipher representation of it. Form is void, void is form, and the two are not separate.
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I'm guilty of this too, but at least my speech tics are mostly a unique blend to me, and they also tend to change seasonally. Meanwhile the emdashpocalypse has been going on for years.
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If it uses a specific style for each user then this would still be fine. Problem is it does the same style for everyone. We need personality
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If training models ever becomes 'cheap' for whatever definition of cheap you want to use, I suspect that will happen. With the current costs of a GDP of a small nation I don't see this likely for the time being.
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I find it irritating with humans. "last but not the least" always distracts me as I then consider maybe the last item _is_ the least. & what is with everyone saying they want to "double click" into meeting items
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it’s not a psychological phenomenon. If a human engineer constantly used pompous language to deliver unvetted information (the number of claude slop root-cause analyses i’ve read where “the smoking gun” is a red herring) we’d rightly consider them a moron
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I didn't articulate it, but what I meant was that I think we could swap these expressions out for _anything_, and we'd still find them irritating.
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People do swap out their expressions all the time. There are influences everywhere that we absorb.

That doesn't matter. The underlying ideas are more important than the words. That's what people are frustrated with. I don't understand why this has to be reiterated for years on end, but LLMs are not intelligent. They just model language.

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"Here's why this version is bulletproof" right before it fails in exactly the same way as the previous bulletproof implementation...
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Who is we? Own your insults and the consequences of them sir.

When prompting an autoregressive token generator entity to do reasoning on a word logic puzzle you may find value in preferring it to produce rigorous predicate logic step notation with explicit delineation of its generated claims/hypotheses on where to look before wasting 30 dollars on a "debug this" prompt.

The industry will probably will probably coalesce around including the chat history in git MRs to reduce this shenanigans.

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> but we don't find it irritating

Yes we do! My wife keeps saying "100%" and after I pointed it out she's stopped.

Also I talk to dozens of different people in my life and they all have different overused phrases. Much less tedious when there's variety.

Finally most human don't do it nearly as often as AI, and they're not quite as LinkedIn as AI.

We don't find it more annoying because it's a machine - it's simply more annoying.

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It's like a new fad word. Gnarly, cool, bogus, rizz. When a few people use them it's new and interesting. When all of culture catches up and overuses them it's annoying as your gen-Z saying 6/7 40 times in a row.

The problem with millions of people using a few model is it's not 40 times in a row, it's 40 million!

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I went through a “100%” phase recently and couldn’t for the life of me understand why I was suddenly saying it ALL THE TIME. Brains are so weird.
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Introduce "hundo p" and "hundy" to her
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Did you negotiate her down to "99%"?
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If LLMs were humans I would find that human absolutely insufferable. It is very much about the language.
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We don't have to live with this. Increasing the temperature (randomness) would fix it.
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...or we call it an overused catch-phrase.
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