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True. Australia is part of the Five Eyes alliance. Fastmail is an Australian company. Australia also has the Assistance and Access Act - https://havenmessenger.com/blog/posts/australia-assistance-a... - which just stops shy of asking Australian tech companies, like Fastmail, to build backdoors into their products so that the government can "legally access" data from them. (When the law passed, Fastmail lost many clients - https://www.itnews.com.au/news/fastmail-loses-customers-face... ).
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> just stops shy of asking Australian tech companies, like Fastmail, to build backdoors into their products so that the government can "legally access" data from them

It stops just short of saying that you must do thispreemptively, but is pretty clear that you must do it if they ask you to.

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Why do I never hear about this ‘feature’ from American products like gmail which 99% of the HN audience is using? Isn’t USA a member of Five Eyes?

I admit it is a concern, as a Fastmail user, but this discussion only seems to happen on the Fastmail threads, yet no one bats an eye if one is suggested to open a gmail account like everybody else.

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Because everybody on HN is most likely aware that Google is an American company and that by using them you pretty much can assume that your data can be compromised without your knowledge or recourse. Post Snowden there should be zero doubt about that. Fastmail is worthy of scrutiny because people might believe that they are materially different when in practice they probably are not.
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And you can’t tell anyone if you do, on pain of jail.
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> your data can still be forcibly pulled and often without you being aware that this happened

as a german i feel the urge to point out that this technically also applies to european companies... With more hurdles for the US, but still technically applicable

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That's true but the EU still has a - mostly - functioning legal system. See 'Schrems' and other lawsuits that came out as they should have.
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Take a look at how they play with regards to chat control. The EU is just the same corrupt BS like D.C., only with a lot more virtue signaling.
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Sorry, I don't agree with that. The amount of corruption in the USA right now is simply off the scale.
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Nah, it’s just more visible. It’s not that much of a sea change. And it’s ridiculously naive to pretend that the major countries in Europe don’t have their own mechanisms to regularly and effectively bypass any democratic inconveniences when necessary. They regularly push through things that no constituent would ever want or vote for.
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Meanwhile the President sits in the Oval Office and says, in a televised interview, with absolutely no shame, that all of his kids and family are insider trading, all the time.
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Meanwhile in Germany insider trading is completely legal for politicians. Well, not insider trading - but it's definition supposedly doesn't extend beyond internal business information.

(At least that's what people keep telling me, im not a lawyer)

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Insider trading is it course not legal for politicians in Germany, as you could have found out without being a lawyer. That being said, transparency/reporting duties for members of parliament/ministers can and should definitely be improved.
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Nah, it’s worse now than ever.
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You're right, just the other day our MP lined his pockets to the tune of a couple of billion, pumped his shitcoin, tipped off his friends about about the stock market movements he was going to cause, sent a couple of good deals to his kids and threatened war on a couple of countries just to please his buddies. And that's just the last couple of months... /s
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Oh, and will sell you access to his market-moving tweets for $100K a month, so you know and can get your stock trades set before the plebes do.
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It's not, you're just watching CNN too much.
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or maybe you're watching Fox News too much?
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Chat control 1 or 2?
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A parliamentary process where a law is being proposed, amended and voted upon isn't "corruption".

Just because you disagree with a law, that doesn't make it "corruption" - it does make you an authoritarian that attacks democracy as soon as other people don't vote like you want.

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Chat control 1 was rejected by the parliament and then passed anyway because parliament doesn't matter. Hardly democratic.
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That's a lie - chat control was amended and then passed via parliament vote.

Please stop spreading fabrications - even when you dislike the result. That's fascist behaviour.

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Not nearly the same thing. Trump and his family have made billions. I cannot say the same of von der Leyen.
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Which of those two leaders were elected by the people?
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The European Parliament is elected by vote and has to ratify the chosen members of the EU council. The president of the council included.
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What's your point? You'd rather have a democratically elected but corrupt leader than an appointed but honest one?
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I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply because if Ursula von der Leyen manages to be less corrupt without being elected by the people that has some uncharitable consequences for the quality of the American electorate, I think HL Mencken had something to say on this
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Technically, the US president is also not elected by the people but by the electors, which in many ways is comparable to how the EU elected the EU Commission President.
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Certainly Van Der Leyen.

I suggest you show up for next EU election if you don't like the option.

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How should EU citizens vote at that next election if they are unhappy with von der Leyen's actions as President of the European Commission in order to remove her if enough other voters agree?
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They should vote for parties that are not organized in the EPP (European people's party). The exact party options depend on the country you're voting in.
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Clearly you have no idea how the head of EC is chosen. Because of the two only Trump was actually elected by the people.
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Remember that Chat control has gone through vote through directly elected parliament like any other legislation.

The next election is in 2029. I suggest you show up instead of spreading fabrications online.

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True, I think the calculus is more about who you think is more trustworthy than what tools they have to damage you.
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I am almost positive things are not the way they were and requests for data access especially if the subjects background is "suspect" are more highly scrutinized.

And as the Americans are choosing to interfere in European domestic politics and trample their own laws and constitution the more scrutiny their requests will get.

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europeans like it more when just european governments are doing it
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Especially if European companies have an office and significant share of customers in the US.
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For anyone curious, it's the CLOUD act:

> The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act

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The point of control is Congress, until we stop electing corpratist politicians, we will continue to get bad legislation.
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It doesn't matter if it's Congress. At the end of the day America's internal governance systems are America's problem. The rest of the world should not care if a certain branch is causing issues, and frankly, is starting to come to that conclusion.

It's unfortunate for us, but we very rarely isolate individual government systems for other nations.

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It's weird how everyone focuses on that part of the CLOUD Act. The CLOUD Act actually did two things: (1) that, and (2) provided an expedited way for the US to enter into Mutual Legal Assistance Treaties (MLATs) with other countries.

It was the MLAT thing that the various civil liberties groups object to (I'll cover the problems with those down below). There was very little objection to the first part.

The first part was not controversial because pretty much every country has something equivalent (for reasons I'll cover below), as did the US except specifically in the case of data covered by the SCA due to poor drafting.

One of the big reasons for the SCA was created was the emerging "third party doctrine" meant that instead of having to get a warrant or subpoena against you to get your data they could simply subpoena it from any of your service providers that had it. The SCA made it so the third party doctrine subpoenas would not apply to stored communications.

There were still cases where the government would need to compel the service provider to turn over the data. They wanted something with the probable cause requirements of a warrant but the delivery method of a subpoena. (A subpoena asks someone who controls the data to turn a copy over. A warrant is for when the government wants to raid the data center and seize the data. Since that involves the government directly acting where the data is located it only applies to someplace where they have jurisdiction).

So they created a new thing, the SCA warrant. The called it a "warrant" because it had the probable cause requirements of a warrant, but neglected to add something saying that in other respects it functions like a subpoena. I'll call this a pseudo-warrant.

The SCA was not the first pseudo-warrant. That would be the warrants under the Wiretap Act of 1968. Territoriality questions did not arise under that because by its nature the data it sought copies of was always in the US.

With the SCA the data might not necessarily be in the US. Years later Microsoft argued that because it is a "warrant" it should have the territorial restrictions that normal warrants have. The CLOUD Act clarified that it was indeed supposed to be like a subpoena as far as territoriality goes.

There have been some more pseudo-warrants created since then, but their drafters learned from the SCA and made sure the original legislation was clear on just what they were.

The reason pretty much every country has something like that, going back well before online documents, is because not having such a thing leads to big problems. If anyone in the country could shield documents from subpoenas (or whatever the equivalent is called in that country) by merely storing them across a border every company with documents that it needs to keep but that might be incriminating later would get sent to a storage facility across a border as soon as they were no longer actively using them.

For example as soon as a car company in Detroit releases a new car all the documents where during development engineers brought up safety concerns which management decided to not address would be sent across the bridge to a storage facility in Canada.

With electronic documents it is even easier. You would not have to wait until you aren't actively using the documents to stick them outside the country. Just stick your file server across a border and make sure you only have copies in country when someone is actively reading or editing them.

And so pretty much everywhere subpoenas compel someone in the country who controls the documents to fetch them (or copies) and turn them over. The actual location of the documents is completely irrelevant.

The thing that was worrying about the CLOUD Act was the MLAT provisions. MLATs are treaties where the participating countries agree on law enforcement. They include things like sharing information and cooperating on investigations. Normally these are enacted just like any other treaty. The executive branch negotiates them and then the Senate votes on ratification.

The CLOUD Act adds an expedited process where the Attorney General and the Secretary of State can sign an MLAT. Congress is not involved. These agreements allow foreign law enforcement to make requests directly to US service providers instead of going through the diplomatic channels normal MLAT requests go through, and they allow them access to stored communications that the SCA would normally block.

There are some safeguards. The foreign government is not supposed to intentionally target US people who are in the US and are not not supposed to use the data they get to infringe freedom of expression. There's also a 180 day window before these executive MLATs take effect during which Congress can block them by passing a joint resolution to do so.

Civil rights groups and many others were not impressed with those safeguards.

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Which wouldn't matter where the data is located, so I don't think that this is the reason Fastmail is doing it, because a savvy enough company would know that the problem is that the company is US based.
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They're Australian
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Australian companies are also subject to the USA Cloud Act. As is the UK, with Canada coming on board soon too.

Even the entire EU is in the process of negotiating the same agreement.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/united-states-and-ca...

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-a...

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That is plain wrong, and on top of that, the CLOUD act doesn't really solve anything because if the order to obtain data is legal for the US arm but illegal for the EU arm, releasing the data from say Ireland to the US would immediately lead to steep monetary and legal penalties for the EU arm.
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It is not wrong...

You can read the text right here:

https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-oia/cloud-act-agre...

The same agreement is in place with the UK. Canada and EU are currently in the process of negotiating it.

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Your linked information doesn't indicate anywhere that Australia or any other foreign government is subject to US law. The latter states that negotiation with the EU on this topic was suspended in 2019.

Things have changed. With Chinese law in regards to data within Chinese jurisdiction a long-standing thing and an unfriendly American government potentially in power for an extended period, other countries are realizing the importance of data sovereignty.

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https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-oia/cloud-act-agre...

> The latter states that negotiation with the EU on this topic was suspended in 2019.

Dated 2023:

> Justice Department and European Commission Announces Resumption of U.S. and EU Negotiations on Electronic Evidence in Criminal Investigations

The negotiations are still ongoing. Canada is further along than the EU.

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That’s not going to help anyone.

The Five Eyes is an Anglosphere intelligence alliance comprising Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. These countries are party to the multilateral UKUSA Agreement, a treaty for joint cooperation in signals intelligence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

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Even being stored in EU doesn't preclude your data from being targeted by signals intelligence. Which is different than requiring US based companies to provide non-US data to American government.

Does fastmail have a US presence? If no - then they're not bound at all by US jurisdiction.

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Meanwhile, in realPolitik, they are Australian, they are subject to AU government pressure, and the AU government is deeply intertwined with and compliant to US government wishes, AUKUS, Pine Gap, Harold Holt Sub communications, Over the horizon radar on China, etc.

See: https://roncobb.net/img/cartoons/aus/k5092-on-Tucker_Box-cuu...

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The question isn’t whether a service has a presence in the sense of employees or regional office, or headquarters.

The question is: do they office services to residents of said country / state.

If so they may well be subject to certain laws that, if broken, could result in penalties up to an including extradition of the responsible officers.

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isn't there this five eyes thingy?
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Yeah, this does absolutely not solve the CLOUD Act issues. However, it is good to look at what the ramifications of the CLOUD Act is for e-mail:

- The US could request your data. You probably shouldn't use e-mail for anything sensitive anyway for many reasons. E-Mail was traditionally not encrypted and I think that many servers still allow plain-text communication. The protocols are old and there are all kinds of downgrade attacks. Aside from that, even if your service does not fall under the CLOUD Act, you are probably f*cked anyway, because most people you communicate with are using services that fall under the CLOUD Act.

- The US can force the provider to block your account. The workarounds are: regularly backup your e-mail (easy for services that offer IMAP) and, most importantly, use a domain with an extension that is not under the control of a US (or probably five eyes) registrar.

Use an E2E-encrypted messenger with perfect forward secrecy, etc. for most personal communication.

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Something like 99% of email is now done over TLS.
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Yes but it will almost always work with self signed or expired certificates, or downgrades to clear text if that's what it takes to deliver the message.
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EU sovereign clouds are taking off right now - especially when it comes to sensitive data (government, healthcare, etc.). Lots of players moving into the space. The common denominator - nothing touches the US.

AWS, Azure, GCP, Oracle, Schwarz Digits, SAP

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Requiring that you believe those companies that they won’t hand the keys over to the US at the first ask.

Like, the critical problem with the AWS sovereign pitch is that you must believe that they won’t give the keys to the US, and they also won’t give the source code that’s hosted in the US to the government either for them to find vulnerabilities in. I don’t know if that’s good enough unless you just need the data to stay in the EU and you don’t care if another country sees it.

I know they probably did some work on it (what if primary AWS goes rogue and the EU entity must work without it) but I don’t know if they explained how they’re safe to the public.

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The harder problem here is that any real EU sovereign platform would have to come with ironclad guarantees that it isn't going to be directly or indirectly sold to a US party. And when enough customers move that marketshare is affected the bags with money tempting shareholders will get larger and larger.
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Isn’t that counterbalanced by the fact that the reason they exist in the first place is to be a sovereign platform?

I am assuming the reason companies switch to them is not price or tech. US cloud providers have the advantage on both.

Selling EU companies data would mean destroying trust over their main selling point, not to mention incur on EU wrath.

Feels like living one whistleblower away from doom.

I refer to fully EU clouds, parent list includes US clouds that do not need bags of money, Clouds Act in enough.

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You can strike at least four of those.
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> AWS, Azure, GCP, Oracle

What? Those are US companies, they will have to give out your data under the Cloud Act. Only Schwarz and SAP are free from that by being German companies.

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> Only Schwarz and SAP are free from that by being German companies.

Not true. You also have to be sure that the company directors will never travel to the US even for a holiday or any third party country that would uphold an extradition request from the US.

It's just email. Nobody is going to jail to protect your email.

If you care that much run your own email server.

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Does this still apply if there are separate legal entities for US & EU operations? Take Hetzner as an example. They have a separate US company to deal with their US data center. Would their EU servers be vulnerable to the CLOUD Act?
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> Take Hetzner as an example.

Similar happened already with OVH Canada vs France.

> In an affidavit, Xavier Barriere, corporate counsel at OVH in Paris, describes the dramatic situation: If the important proponent of European data sovereignty were to comply with the Canadian order, those responsible in France would be committing a criminal offense. They face up to six months in prison and fines of up to 90,000 euros per violation. However, if OVH ignores the Canadian court, it faces contempt of court proceedings in Ontario, which can also lead to severe sanctions.

https://www.heise.de/en/news/Canadian-Court-OVHcloud-from-Fr...

And one comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46060903

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Well, for sure they can pressure them but I highly doubt Hetzner would break the law in Europe to satisfy the US government, they are a lot more to lose here than there. I realize that that is not proof.
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The relevant fact about Hetzner is that it's an EU company with US branch, not a US company with an EU branch.
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Can you point me towards some resources that show EU customers moving?

Not that I don’t trust the statement, I just would like to know more.

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I hope Airbus is large enough for you?

https://thenextweb.com/news/airbus-scaleway-aws-sovereign-cl...

And many others besides, pretty much every company I've looked at in the last year is either acutely aware of the problem or they are already executing on it. With Trump and his merry band of criminals repeatedly stating they're going to take Greenland by force you can't blame them either, that would effectively put the EU on a war footing with the United States (I still can't believe I'm writing this sort of thing and it is not entirely fiction), the end result of that would be that there would be an absolute run on EU hosted capacity. They're just trying to beat the rush and hope they'll never be proven to be right.

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HN Search: airbus critical apps scaleway - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Gov.uk has replaced Stripe with Dutch provider Adyen - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415217 - June 2026 (235 comments)

Netherlands reaches deal with European cloud company to decrease U.S. tech reliance - https://nltimes.nl/2026/04/24/netherlands-reaches-deal-europ... - April 24th, 2026

Wary of US Big Tech, the EU looks to build its “EuroStack” - https://sherwood.news/world/wary-of-us-big-tech-the-eu-looks... - March 18th, 2026

Why European Companies Are Leaving US Cloud Providers in 2026 — And Where They're Going - https://massivegrid.com/blog/european-companies-leaving-us-c... - March 12th, 2026

Europe gets serious about cutting digital umbilical cord with Uncle Sam's big tech - https://www.theregister.com/off-prem/2025/12/22/europe-gets-... - December 22nd, 2025

Schleswig-Holstein waves auf Wiedersehen to Microsoft stack - https://www.theregister.com/software/2025/10/15/schleswig-ho... - October 15th, 2025

EU Banks Launch Wero Payments to Dislodge Visa, Mastercard - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41666833 - September 2024 (88 comments)

https://european-alternatives.eu/

https://euro-stack.com/

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US Cloud soon illegal? Trump punches first hole in EU-US Data Deal - https://noyb.eu/en/us-cloud-soon-illegal-trump-punches-first... (2025-01)

EU-US Data Transfers: First Reaction on "Latombe" Case - https://noyb.eu/en/eu-us-data-transfers-first-reaction-latom... (2025-09)

EU-US Data Transfers: Time to prepare for more trouble to come - https://noyb.eu/en/eu-us-data-transfers-time-prepare-more-tr... (2025-12)

US Supreme Court just blew up EU-US Data Transfers - https://noyb.eu/en/us-supreme-court-just-blew-eu-us-data-tra... (2026-06)

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Tnx!

I was up to date on noyb, but not aware that actually companies are moving at this speed and size.

Thanks all for some great resources

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Thank you su much, wow
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Ok, but Fastmail is an Australian company based in Melbourne.
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Australia and the US entered into a bilateral agreement in 2024 which made Australian companies subject to the US CLOUD Act.

https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-oia/cloud-act-agre...

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As a FastMail customer who spends a portion of the year in the US, I am happy to pay to move my data to the EU region, even if they cannot yet fully guarantee all my data will remain outside of US access at this time. Defense and mitigations in depth, over time. We must always start somewhere, and perfect is never the target (as it does not exist).
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Agree - small steps always positive here
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But whose cloud infrastructure do they use? (I don't know, but it might likely be AWS, GCP, or Azure.)
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That it described in the linked post:

We’ve installed our own servers, co-located in a secure facility in Amsterdam, set up by our own engineers.

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None. It's racked and stacked old school
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The French head of Microsoft ctor not, under oath, say that Microsoft can guarantee sovereignty. This is the evidence that until you have a EU company, under EU rules and not present in the US at all, you cannot have sovereignty.
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pCloud is an example.

Swiss corporation with data centers in Luxembourg.

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How does Apple handle it?
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Why would apple care? Eu is what a quarter of their business? And where exactly will those people move? They're locked into the Apple infra.
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Fastmail is an Australian company
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And hosted on US infrastructure, satisfying the "or" clause in their post
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The article says they installed their own servers, though. What am I missing here?
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[dead]
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That’s true and Fastmail runs on AWS. But it’s a start and a “feature” many have requested for years. It’s funny because the HQ and I believe their workforce is located in Australia.
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Not only is that not true, but in fact FastMail predates AWS by some years.

Source: I founded FastMail.

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Great username :-) I'm a happy longtime Fastmail customer and I'm migrating to the new EU area.
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Fastmail has never used AWS, and this article is pretty clear about how they have always used their own hardware and traditional colocation.

Fastmail used to be based in Melbourne only, but after the Pobox merger it ended up with an office in Philadelphia too. No idea how the balance of things is between the offices now.

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That’s interesting, I thought they were hosted on AWS. Thanks for sharing.
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But how is it actually "a start" or improves anything at all? It doesnt matter where the "physical location" of the data is. It matters who has access to it.
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Fastmail runs on its own infra.
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