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I think a more fair comparison would be that you hired a consulting firm to create a report and give you a summary of it, but you’re charged for the report itself separately from the summary, and you are not allowed to access the unsummarized report.

by selestify8 hours ago|

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How is that a more fair comparison? The consulting firm in this case never promised you the interim reports, only the summaries of the reports. They also promised you the final output that the reports led to. You decided that report summaries + final output was worth paying for. You got exactly what you were promised.

by iot_devs8 hours ago|

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I personally read the thinking traces to know if the model is on the right direction

by selestify7 hours ago|

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I'm not saying they're not useful, of course they are. I am disputing that they are part of the agreed bargain between you and the proprietary LLM providers.

They explicitly do not promise reasoning traces. You (general you) agree to those terms and pay for that bargain anyways.

by jdub7 hours ago|

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We "agree" to many things that are deeply unfair.

by jadar6 hours ago|

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Yet we have the option to decide not to participate. That is an option.

by thejazzman6 hours ago|

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I’m just driving by here but they bill by tokens — it’s a stretch to turn around and deny your right to see them. And it’s especially egregious when the tokens admittedly, routinely do the opposite of what you instructed.

But personally it’s not about right and won’t it’s just blatant bullshit.

by selestify2 hours ago|

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And lawyers bill by 6-minute increments, yet that doesn't mean you get access to all of a law firm's internal discussions and notes about you and your case.

Just because you paid for the lawyer time/LLM tokens doesn't mean you get access to everything that happened within that time/tokens.

by ashdksnndck5 hours ago|

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It’s normal for consulting firms to charge for inputs like hours of labor, airfare etc.

> but you’re charged for the report itself separately from the summary, and you are not allowed to access the unsummarized report

This analogy works if the LLM provider promises you access to the reasoning tokens, and fails if they don’t.

by wasfgwp5 hours ago|

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But they did deliver the internal notes, just told you to not look at them. Also the analogy doesn’t make a lot of sense to me since humans (or companies paying them) own the content they produce. Based on current precedent Anthropic doesn’t have any more rights to the LLM outputs produced by your inputs than you.

Whether that violates the ToS is another matter Anthropic is of course free to sue for damages or stop doing business with you.

by lbreakjai4 hours ago|

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You paid the consulting firm for the outcome. If they sent you a bill for every piece of research they wrote down to get to the report, you bet I would want to see exactly what's inside and what I paid for.

by mlazos7 hours ago|

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Except you paid for the words of the conversation..

by Gud6 hours ago|

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And how much of our output have the copied to train their models on?

by amazingman8 hours ago|

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Except in this case the report is giving you conclusions while withholding the data and reasoning process that lead to those conclusions.

Alternatively, I paid for the tokens therefore I should have access to them. If the vendor wants to artificially hide them from me, I'll just find another way to access them.