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> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone?

I just bought a new m5 macbook air. The day that I can't treat my MacOS laptop as basically a glorified NeXT workstation and install/run code of my own choice (albeit after going through a few scary warnings in the default user protecting system preferences, like allow to run unsigned code, etc), is the day I stop buying apple hardware and just use linux laptops again.

I see news about apple thinking about "merging" MacOS and iOS and making a touch screen macbook and it really makes me think they are going to try to do this in the near future.

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The "merging" is the "convergence" meme. Tech journos like it because they can say "the coming unification" and it has a kind of mythic taste and they're casual thinkers. If (when?) Apple goes down that path, their entire value prop will be dead and gone. The Linux Desktop will come as everything else simply decays.
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Just use linux laptops! :)

It is pretty clear where Apple/MS/Google OSes are headed, and it's a bad place.

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For desktop and server, sure. MacBook is superior for everything that matters in a laptop. The touchpad alone is a dream. compare that to constant pain for the thousands of hours I will use the device over it's lifetime.
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You already can’t download and run an unnotarized binary on M-series Macs without stripping the gatekeeper quarantine flag, so…
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yes, though the level of headache is relatively minimal. I meant I'd stop using it if things became completely impossible to run unsigned code (or the hassle went from a couple of extra seconds of work to some convoluted process) . Additionally something like this takes less than a minute to do once.

https://donatstudios.com/mac-terminal-run-unsigned-binaries

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I can't see them doing anything that stops homebrew working.
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SOC2 and other compliance frameworks will take charge of making those flags compulsory, with the threat of being uninsured and willfully personally responsible in case of breach.

At least computers of all other normal workers would be locked down; Those of developers could have development tools but certainly shouldn't be able to connect to production servers or have customer invoicing data in them. Maybe buy two computers for developers with legal tasks? Win-win for Apple.

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> is the day I stop buying apple hardware and just use linux laptops again.

Kinda tempted to do that already just because of Liquid Glass.

I mean, if I'm going to be stuck with a *nix OS whose UI is badly thought out and inconsistent between apps, might as well take the cheaper option, right?

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yeah, but if only suspend/resume worked near flawlessly... I've had MacOS crash on suspend or resume before, but I'd say it happens less than 1/10th of 1% of the time I sleep or resume my laptop.
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> All in all, still extremely anti-consumer. If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone?

Don’t worry. They’re working really hard to fix the bug. It’s not intended that you can install without paying a fee.

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> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac

For now. It is clear which direction Apple is going.

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There is a big difference between fighting to keep their walled garden in IOS alive and nuking the entire developer ecosystem that they have built on macos.
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There’s a whole layer of VPs banging their head against the wall 24/7 on how to make it possible, don’t worry.
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There is a whole gang of commenters who just parrot their baseless crap given any opportunity.
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I'm glad at least one user is thinking about the children.
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Have been seeing this comment for a decade at least now.
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>All in all, still extremely anti-consumer.

One thing that ticks me off about this conversation is they are always framed as anti-consumer, instead of anti-developer. It's Tim Sweeney, Mark Zuckerberg, and the ad networks who have the biggest gripe with these policies, not consumers. Consumers are the ones who bear the brunt of the cost when it comes to developers who desperately need to exercise their right to capture every and any piece of data the OS provides.

>If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone?

We saw how developers used that "freedom" - now all almost all software runs in a remote server and is delivered through a sandbox (and even then developers try as hard as possible to poison that as well).

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Anti-developer is anti-consumer because it creates a barrier to entry as a supplier in a market where consumers create the demand, but I suppose the main thesis behind calling it anti-consumer is that competition among suppliers is generally considered good for consumers for keeping prices and product/service quality in check.
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> We saw how developers used that "freedom" - now all almost all software runs in a remote server and is delivered through a sandbox (and even then developers try as hard as possible to poison that as well).

Evil developers forcing poor users to download their applications. Guess we all to suffer with braindead supercomputers in our pockets, because granny gran installed hax to get free gems for a gacha (that she downloaded from Apple approved App Store).

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>Evil developers forcing poor users to download their applications.

Stupid users who have neglected to attain perfect and absolute information regarding all the things that the applications they install will do.

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>who desperately need to exercise their right to capture every and any piece of data the OS provides.

thankfully the EU has extensive privacy regulations prohibiting developers from doing just that, so we can enjoy open platforms instead of being at the mercy of a private corporations protection racket as if it's the 19th century

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Are those regulations adequately enforced? Lots of smaller developers out of jurisdication, and lots of bigger ones treat it as a cost of doing business: the data is worth more than the fines.
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> why should I not be able to do so on my phone?

Strictly speaking, you can. Enable developer mode, connect your phone to your Mac (you need a Mac), and you can build and install whatever code you want.

Asterisks being that your phone will uninstall it after a while I think, and you need to create a free account for Xcode.

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The up to 3 apps per device stay but cannot be opened after 7 days until refreshed.

And "whatever code you want" here excludes JIT compilation, or as I understand it memory that is both writable and executable, as your app would require a special 'entitlement' from Apple.

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You actually need a paid account, even for local installs, if you use certain tech, like NFC
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Seriously? I have a custom Android app that I use. It's mostly vibe coded now, which I'm a bit embarrassed about, but demonstrates that the bar for custom software is very low at the moment and getting lower.

I considered getting an iPhone to replace my S-series Samsung, the only reason I stayed with Samsung is for the S-Pen. Had I gone with iPhone I would not be able to write and run my own software? That's absolutely ridiculous.

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Strictly speaking, I can't, I don't own any Mac nor planning to do so
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Because phones are surveillance devices people happen to casually carry everywhere, so the stakes are considerably higher.
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apple had this once, and it ended with chinese qr codes to download illegal apps everywhere
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The messages on Mac are becoming more ridiculous and cumbersome each upgrade though. Kind of sick of jumping through System Settings hoops every time I upgrade an app
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Every time I’m forced to do it[0] I feel good because I’m glad these hoops are unavoidable on all the computers of the people I provide family tech support for.

[0] Which is rare. I’m installing random shit all the time using homebrew and it’s basically never an issue.

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Except it won't show for signed+notarized apps. It's just a minor obstacle to deliver malware. Even stuff on App Store has malware in it.

If security was a concern, these hoops would be for all apps, not just unsigned. It just shows the only function it serves is gatekeeping by Apple.

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and when malware is discovered in the rare case of signed apps signing can be revoked
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Signature revocations are functionally equivalent to malware definitions and correspondingly don't actually require code signing.
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If you’re a developer you can kind of do it, or so ChatGPT tells me:

> So for, say, your iPad mini plus 2–5 other iPads, the workable setup is: Mac + Xcode → $99/year developer membership → register each iPad's UDID → create an Ad Hoc build → install that build on those devices. You don't have to publish it, make it discoverable, or have Apple review it.

That would work for me, except that I prefer to build web apps instead. There’s nothing I really want to build that couldn’t be done as a web app.

As for why one computing platform would be different than another, if you don’t think there’s any difference then why not use a Raspberry Pi or something?

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If what we were discussing was hacky ways of installing apps on your own device rather than distribution to end users, you can do without the Developer membership cost.

It would just be limited to 3 apps per device that require to be refreshed every 7 days to continue to be able to open them.

Web apps are a non starter for iOS since the only allowed browser on iOS happens to not support crucial standards and may drop your app's persistent data.

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> $99/year developer membership

Yeah...

> then why not use a Raspberry Pi or something?

Because a Raspberry Pi would be very inconvenient to use as a smartphone, obviously. Doesn't explain why it makes sense to treat one ARM computer as a mildly locked jail (Macs) and another as a hard locked jail (iPhones and other handhelds); I feel like the only explanation here is that the smartphone duopoly has worked hard to condition customers into accepting this.

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> I feel like the only explanation here is that the smartphone duopoly has worked hard to condition customers into accepting this.

This is older than the current smartphone duopoly; IIRC, with a few exceptions like the N900 and the Palm Treo, cell phones were always very locked down. It probably came initially from the phone companies being control freaks, and wanting to restrict which devices (even mechanical ones with no electrical or radio interface) could be attached to their phone system.

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Cell phones weren’t always effectively the primary computing devices for most of the human population.

> N900 and the Palm Treo

Performance-wise, a modern iPhone is more closely comparable to room-sized (building-sized?) supercomputer of that era.

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You technically don’t need to pay if you just want to run your app on your phone. If you want to distribute your app with Testflight or the App Store you need to pay.
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As long as you're willing to re-sign and reinstall it every 7 days, that is. The free certificates Apple hands out have expiry set to a week, and AFAIK you can't configure your own iPhone to trust your own certificate.
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The $99/yr part gives me the ick.
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> why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Why would one computing platform be different from the other?

If Microsoft had its act together PCs would have been just as locked down as phones are today and we wouldn't be questioning a difference.

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Microsoft proposed locked-down PCs decades ago and got criticism from sources as mainstream as the New York Times. Everyone more technical than that, with the possible exception of corporate IT types flatly rejected it.

I'm sad there was so much less backlash to restricting user control on phones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/30/business/technology-a-saf...

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Microsoft sell locked down PCs today. Secure Boot cannot be disabled, nor new keys enrolled, on Windows PCs that ship with an ARM processor (yes they exist). It's as if Apple decided to lock down Macbooks when they switched to M-series. The only thing keeping PCs "free" is that ARM processors suck at the high end if you're not Apple, so it's seen as acceptable market segmentation. It's purely arbitrary though, just like it's purely arbitrary that you can put Linux on a Macbook but not an iPad despite having the same SoC.
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I think what you meant to say is if US regulators weren't asleep at the wheel phones would be just as unlocked as PCs.
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Well here's EU regulators working with Apple directly to allow it. I honestly think that's worse, the EU government took the time to allow this directly. It's not just a case of the existing laws not being clear in this instance, it's the EU working with Apple to come up with this 'solution'.

5% tax on all digital transactions (still applies to Kindle ebooks too I'm guessing?) and all applications have to go through an Apple review process. That's ridiculous for a government to explicitly agree to.

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Governments will agree to that because at the end of the day it gives them a party they can go to. In this instance if they want Apple or Google to remove an app they can. It gives them the ability to use that option whenever they don't like something it's not by accident. Its a win-win for them and Apple/Google. You are never going to get the wild wild west we have on the pc platform ever again.
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The premise here is that there isn't a single government in the entire world which is more willing to protect its population than oppress it.

If that's the case then maybe we need to start considering what kind of alternate mechanisms can robustly mitigate the threat.

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If [shitty thing] had been normalized years ago, we wouldn't be questioning [shitty thing]'s existence today. I mean, yeah dude.
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What the heck does this defeatist argument have to do with it???
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> Why would one computing platform be different from the other?

Because malware breaking the sandbox of one of them can mostly only spy on the owner, while malware breaking the sandbox of the other can spy on whoever the owner walks past, GPS trace their movements…

Question for those with more industry knowledge than me: If you assume a broken sandbox, is it possible for an app to record phone calls, then use that recording to create a deepfaked voice that can then be transmitted as a new call? My naïve assumption is "yes obviously", but for all I know the hardware has some way to activate a switched circuit from the phone service to the speaker and microphone that can't have other sound data pass through it.

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LOL. That security bogeyman argument is a convenient post-hoc justification. The real reason is much simpler: Because "computers" started out with "Owner can run code of their choice on it" as one of the main definitional qualities agreed upon by the market.

Devices which only ran code that the vendor had specially packaged for the device always had other names, like Games Console, Word Processor, MP3 Player, Graphing Calculator, or just plain "Toy." Nobody confused those with computers and nobody accepted them as computers.

Phones entered this world already in that second category, long before Apple even considered making one. Apple kept an iron grip at first and after careful consideration, decided to only allow third-parties to even enter on terms extremely favorable and profitable to Apple, and always under their direct control.

Closing off the Mac would be very messy and also cause tremendous headaches due to it being the development platform for iOS. They don't want to bother. But the reason iOS is closed is because it's always been closed, and they'll never open it unless forced, because money.

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I respect your overall point but I think the picture is more nuanced than that. "Computer" as a term is simply unpopular, in favor of something referencing the intended application, as determined by things like the form factor:

Graphing Calculators are computers in every sense, it's hard to find one you can't at least program in a high level language like Basic or Python, and many accept assembly programs - even Texas Instruments models did, before their signing keys were brute forced.

Games consoles too almost invariably run third party code, although they tend not to be end user programmable - no different than an iPhone in that regard, really.

"Feature phones" - pre-smartphone phones with cameras and internet etc - usually had the ability to run Java Midlets without manufacturer blessing, even though you couldn't touch the OS. You could SSH into servers from those!

I think a big problem is that the distinction between "general purpose computer" and "end user programmable general purpose computer" is functionally meaningless when you can't write programs, which is most people. Instead they understand it in a functional context - what is this device for? How does it compare to how such devices usually work? The general purpose CPU inside is an implementation detail, and just because you think of an iPhone as a computer doesn't mean everyone does. They think of it as a "phone".

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Most people consider the iPhone as a "phone", not as a "computer". It's even in the name. So it fits your definition for devices which only run code that the vendor had specially packaged.
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People obviously consider it a computer; they install and use third party software on it. The question is whether the vendor should be allowed to monopolize the market for the third party software even when both the user and the third party developer don't want them to.
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> Because malware breaking the sandbox of one of them can mostly only spy on the owner, while malware breaking the sandbox of the other can spy on whoever the owner walks past, GPS trace their movements…

Then fix your s****y sandbox, Apple.

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Sure, great idea.

[Incoming call: National Security Agency] "Don't you dare stop our malware doing all that stuff you just said".

:P

All the other nations' agencies, outisde Five Eyes at least, will probably want to stop the NSA's malware, but may have their own instead.

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