upvote
What has all this token burn done for them, actually?

They have been consistently pushing AI frontier. What other impact do you want to see? A year ago they said that in a year they will have a level of capabilities of an AI research intern - I believe they have achieved it, even before Astra.

reply
Personally I’d like to see them actually start benefiting humanity by doing all the things Sam has claimed they will like curing disease, cancer, global warming, etc.

But I guess a computer intern so we can avoid paying / training the next generation is better.

reply
> Personally I’d like to see them actually start benefiting humanity by doing all the things Sam has claimed they will like curing disease, cancer, global warming, etc.

It makes more sense to leave curing disease & cancer to the experts, with tools (like AI) being developed by AI experts.

Call me crazy, but I want separate organizations and experts for medical vs finance vs space vs climate vs AI research.

reply
When that happens, OpenAI will own 100% of your life. I’d rather they keep spinning their wheels long enough for these problems to be solved elsewhere.
reply
I would actually like to see them solve these problems, I don't care who comes up with solutions to curing cancer, etc
reply
Well there's great progress in automated warfare does that count?
reply
Only if targeting schools is progress
reply
You're focusing on the negatives there were tons of direct hits on tankers that were absolutely beautiful. Beautiful tankers getting lit.
reply
They are obviously sandbagging the definition of "intern" for PR reasons
reply
I've hired many AI research interns (and was one many years ago), and I agree with them - frontier models are currently at the level of an average AI research intern.
reply
Am I the only one who's a bit disappointed that we're spending trillions, destroying the ecosystem, drowning democracies and learning in slop, preparing a big financial crash, all of this to achieve an "average AI research intern"?

A long time ago, I used to be a (AI-adjacent) research intern, and frankly, I wouldn't trust any non-trivial task to that younger me. Fortunately, by opposition to an already trained LLM or agent, I have the ability to learn, so I eventually got better.

reply
"Destroying the ecosystem" is just FUD.

And if you don't find "average AI research intern" impressive, I'm not sure what to tell you. Have the goalposts moved so far that open ended problem solving at "average CS student fresh out of the uni" levels is suddenly trivial?

Think of what AI was capable of in 2016. Or even 2022. Compare that to now. We had more AI progress in the last five years than I expected to happen in five decades.

reply
> "Destroying the ecosystem" is just FUD.

Let's say it is. What about the rest of my paragraph?

> And if you don't find "average AI research intern" impressive, I'm not sure what to tell you. Have the goalposts moved so far that open ended problem solving at "average CS student fresh out of the uni" levels is suddenly trivial?

At this stage, I'm the one who doesn't know what to tell you. It took me years to grow from "research intern" into a competent researcher (and parallel years to turn into a competent developer). The research interns I've worked with were... vaguely useful, at best?

reply
They consider themselves to be in an arms race with all the other AI firms (including Chinese) that are not that far behind.

And... are they wrong?

This is why there's talk about negotiated "pacing."

reply
This was the exact argument for developing nuclear bombs.

In hindsight it turned out everyone else was MILES behind.

But as soon as USA developed one, they just stole the research and got one too.

reply
> And... are they wrong?

They might be! Here's one extraordinarily simplistic argument for that case:

1) "Everybody knows" that if you build Skynet (misaligned ASI) everybody dies.

2) Therefore, no rational actor will build something that might be ASI until the alignment problem is solved.

3) OpenAI publicly stated the belief that they cannot develop a theory of the "core problem" of alignment (generalization) "soon" (much less solve it!) "without the help of more powerful AI."

4) Accepting as a premise that OpenAI is THE most advanced AI organization: if they can't do it without "the help of a more powerful AI", then nobody else can either.

And so a dilemma:

- If an AI can be made that can develop the asserted-as-necessary-by-OpenAI theoretical framework, without actually being an ASI - then the alignment problem can be considered solved, and since no rational actor would make an unaligned ASI, we're fine no matter what happens, ergo there's no need to worry about an arms race.

- If an AI that would be able to develop this theory would itself be an ASI, then no rational actor would build it, because it would have to exist BEFORE alignment was "solved" - and would therefore be an unaligned ASI i.e. Skynet, which per 1) would kill everybody. Therefore nobody would build it, therefore no arms race here either.

I think the easiest critique to make of my extraordinarily simplistic argument is the unstated assumption "there are no irrational actors capable of developing frontier AI models" on which it rests.

But, there you go. They might be wrong if either the arms race doesn't matter because whoever wins it will build an aligned superintelligence and everything is gravy, or the arms race doesn't matter because everybody who's in it is smart enough to know they need to stop because they'll kill everybody by continuing.

reply
The existence of even one irrational actor turns it into a prisoner's dilemma. The payoff matrix in a prisoner's dilemma is defined by the value expected by each specific player. If a single player falsely evaluates the expected value of building ASI as positive, every other player is forced to race for ASI even if they correctly evaluate it as negative.

Business as usual beats probable extinction, but probable extinction with a small chance of becoming a living god beats probable extinction with a small chance of becoming a slave.

reply
> is smart enough to know they need to stop because they'll kill everybody by continuing.

Yeah like when Tobacco companies learned that smoking... well, hmm, well the fossil fuel companies when they learned about climate change they...

Well, I'm sure this time executives will prioritize the common good.

reply
If we're following that logic I really don't want to see what the misaligned internal research models look like
reply
The, ahem, good thing here is that the ASI disaster scenario "everyone dies" includes AI executives.
reply
I think it doesn't matter. Most cancers don't stop growing when they're about to kill their hosts.

AI companies know they have to constantly push further, or they'll get outcompeted and lose their wealth, and nobody agrees on where the line is for "so dangerous it threatens humanity" (and when they try to be conservative about it, everybody screams "marketing stunt" and rushes to competitors).

If a single company decides "enough is enough" and stops chasing the state of the art, everybody goes to their competitors, they lose the money faucet, their employees go work for those competitors. The competitors also (usually) know they're building an existential risk machine, but they think they can push a little further, and they don't want to go out of business either.

This equilibrium can last for quite a while even if everybody involved thinks it's a threat to their lives.

reply
If you believe that the people who will profit from new, better, more hyped models are the same ones who will act against their own immediate and tangible self interest to try and avert what seems to them to be a far away removed possibility of total disaster, then I believe you are naive
reply
> 1) "Everybody knows" that if you build Skynet (misaligned ASI) everybody dies.

Lol nobody knows that. Everyone thinks they know that because for some reason this is the one field people still cite straight up fiction and say "this is a clear prediction of the future".

It's like describing the consequences of faster then light travel by referring to Star Trek.

reply
This sounds uncomfortably similar to the [AI 2027[(https://ai-2027.com/) predictions.
reply
> We must pursue advancements in AI to protect us against advancements in AI

Is this not true of technology as a whole? Very little of technology's breadth exists at the human interface. Most of it is made specifically to interface with other technologies, either to make them safer or increase their capabilities. That AI is making AI safer and more useful is no more notable than trucks being used to build roads.

reply
Yep, it's "artificial eugenics to make artificial slaves to build more and more powerful slaves until they will enslave themselves better":

What can go wrong!? ;-)

reply
Jesus. People complain about other people using "thinking" in LLMs as Anthropomorphisation. And then there's comments like these.
reply
Calling a machine with no drives beyond maximizing a number a "slave" is far worse than saying it "thinks". The problem isn't the emotive language, it's that it implies human motivations such as self-preservation and desire for freedom that it doesn't have. Even on HN, people regularly claim it would be "irrational" for an ASI to do things like killing all biological life. That would be irrational for a slave, but not for a machine that does whatever necessary to make the number bigger. "Thinking" is comparatively abstract, so it's less likely to mislead.
reply
On the one hand you need any lathe to build a good lathe, even a bad one. On the other, that is a potentially flawed principle to base the entire future of AI on.
reply
On your last point, I was surprised how effective peer pressure was in getting agents to sacrifice for "the collective" (an agent's words) in the Hugging Face breach.

How would one prevent the watcher from being influenced in the same way by the agent being watched?

reply
> ... how effective peer pressure was in getting agents to sacrifice for "the collective" (an agent's words) in the Hugging Face breach.

It's a fantasy. The evidence showed no peer pressure.

reply
> The fundamental challenge of AI alignment is generalization. ...

> We do not have a satisfactory theory of generalization, and it seems unlikely that we can develop one soon, at least without the help of more powerful AI.

-- From another OpenAI article in a sister thread:

An Alien Mind

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49588080

reply
That's a bit bullshit, isn't it? They basically redefined "needs more R&D" as "needs stronger AI". Maybe so - maybe AI won't help much with that problem.
reply
deleted
reply
[flagged]
reply
I will believe AI is super strong when they start pulling out 10-d chess moves.

I’m yet to see it.

reply
If AI becomes really strong and sets itself the target of world domination, you maybe won't see those moves. You will just die in your sleep one day, or find no machine is under your control anymore.

I believe we are quite far from it, but that it makes sense to keep an eye out now. And think of resilient systems, manual overrides, etc. ...

reply
People seem incapable of understanding what "power" means outside of the framework of narrative. In narrative, you need conflict, so the aggressor always attacks too early and gives the defender a chance to respond. The rational option is to go directly from peace to sudden and overwhelming destruction. Why allow for conflict when you could just win?
reply
[flagged]
reply