upvote
The problem with this is the biggest, most important, and sketchiest data brokering services (credit monitoring) are all but entrenched in law at this point.
reply
I don't really know what you expect, people are obviously going to want to know your credit history when they're lending to you. If you can't tell what loans someone has, they could have opened a hundred different accounts and used the money in the casino.
reply
How should credit reports work?
reply
Well, there are multiple approaches, but here's one that worked well for me: when I purchased a home in the country where I now live, and the mortgage lender asked for a credit report from the (high-privacy) country where I lived the longest, what they got was a letter from that country's central bank listing the penalties for requesting that information. Up to and including jail time.

Suddenly the credit report was no longer a prerequisite to the mortgage.

reply
That is rad. Is your high-privacy country friendly to immigrants? Asking for a friend...

But for real. You say you no longer live there, so I'm assuming you left for more opportunities. My wife and I are interested in countries with opportunities for engineers and privacy. Bonus points if there is engineering research opportunities.

reply
Wouldn't this make credit riskier for lenders, reducing access to credit in general and thus making housing less accessible especially to working people?

Not asking polemically, I just have never studied economics and wonder if my intuition here is flawed

reply
I think the actual trade-off is between average acceptable risk at society level.

Some societies prefer huge risks for huge benefits, in those one (might) need a more detailed credit reports because everything is faster, people accept huge risks and the situation can suddenly change.

Some societies prefer more stability. Lower risks, lower surprises. Less opportunities, everything is slower, people can't even take that many risks, simpler histories will do th trick.

From what I notice though, housing seems to be a problem in both types of societies, irrespective on how credits are given, because there are other things involved (regulation, NIMBY, housing used as value, airbnb, geography, etc).

reply
You are so full of BS it's scary. No credit report is a non-starter at any financial institution that wants to stay in business. They won't be giving you a loan unless they know you are wealthy e.g. own 17 investment properties already. 'High-privacy' countries is code for 'tax-haven', and 'my money in the Cayman Islands' means your bank is about to run afoul of AML and KYC laws if they give you a loan. And this is the whole world: doing business with America means adopting their financial posture i.e. penalties for doing business with money launderers.
reply
You bring your own data to each credit check.

It feels onerous as an idea because bank statements, monthly bills, payslips, will bequests, stock vests and trades, bank robberies*, and investment income each have different ways of being tracked. At least most of these records of individual financial activity come with a PDF these days. It wasn’t that long ago that applying for a loan meant scanning in papers for your lender to review.

Computers are smarter now. Not only can they read documents (or at least match the shapes against shapes they’ve been told are real) but they can also understand the contents too (or at least match the words against ideas they’ve been told are real.)

There may well yet be a future Data Valhalla where individuals hold their life.zip themselves, and upload whatever bits of it are needed to get that Nordstrom store card / car financing / cheeseburger loan without having an intermediate credit agency.

*I feel there’s a kernel of a joke there about a bank robber asking for a receipt with the loot in anticipation of declaring it on their tax return.

reply
I don't see how this works in reality - The issue is that users wouldn't upload negative information (e.g. county court judgements or the bank robbery from your example).

Credit isn't like insurance where these things can be checked later during a claim (which can then be denied) - you need to know the person is a bad-payer before you send them the ten thousand dollar loan as that affects the terms, not afterwards when they default and you can't get your money back.

reply
For CCJs and bank robberies, you'd upload a clean sheet from the government that gives a list of all CCJs and criminal convictions (in the UK we have a system called DBS for criminal records).

Potentially, with loans or other things, some kind of technical solution could work. You could have a personal document that you control, and you give permission for companies to write to the document.

With a loan, for example, if I give you a loan, I can also append to your document that I've loaned you the money; for every payment you make, I write to the log to say you've made a payment. If you stop making payments, I stop writing to the log. This would be cryptographically signed by me, so it can't be forged.

When you want to take out another loan, you can proactively share your document, the bank can see everything written on the log, and make a decision based on that.

reply
Naively, credit is if you can pay, and if you will pay.

For the latter it’s whether you’ve had a judgment against you, which is a matter of public record.

For the former it’s based on how much money you have and what you spend, including on servicing existing debt. Lying about this would be fraud. In that sense, my proposal does indeed open up a new avenue for fraud but I don’t think that’s the same as it being unworkable!

reply
So what. Maybe it is corrosive to society to provide unsecured credit willynilly. Yes, it makes the banks giant amounts of money, but IMHO consumer credit should only be a thing for two classes of assets (that can be repo'd easy-ish) real estate and vehicles.

The Western governments have horribly failed of caring for their people - cost of living are exploding, and at the moment way too many people are papering over that with unsecured credits backed by their data being free to exploit, and everyone else not willing of doing that is increasingly locked out of existence.

reply
The point of the credit agency is to work for the lender?
reply
[flagged]
reply
…is the title of my sex tape!
reply
How did lending work before nationwide mass surveillance of consumers and reporting on their activities?
reply
It typically required more direct sources of trust. If you were a grocery store, you might let customers you personally knew to be good for it, run up a 'tab' and settle on payday. If you were a bank, you might only lend to rich high-class people. You can find this all around the world today; the US is a standout for credit scoring and for access to credit. When a British person wants to sell their house, it has to happen on the same day that the buyer sells their old house, and the house they're moving into to be sold, and so on in a big same-day daisy-chain, until you hit someone who has enough cash for initial outlay. In Japan, up until very recently, you could expect your boss to need to co-sign your apartment lease (and your landlord to immediately escalate any disagreements to your boss).
reply
> It typically required more direct sources of trust. If you were a grocery store, you might let customers you personally knew to be good for it, run up a 'tab' and settle on payday. If you were a bank, you might only lend to rich high-class people.

You hit the nail on the head with the first statement. It required humans in the loop. It scaled linearly. Local branch managers had relationships with the people in their community, and knew who could and couldn't be trusted.

It was an imperfect system, where a human could be prejudiced against another human, and deny them access to credit.

Sometimes that would get discovered, and the human was held accountable for their actions, or had their actions upheld by a (org-chart-superior) human.

Similar to the imperfect system today, where the models a computer uses could be prejudiced against a human, and deny them access to credit. Dissimilar in that the model or the computer is rarely, if ever, held to account. "Computer says no" is a meme for a reason.

reply
Sounds like a mess! How in that system will people get access to credit for things like buying fast food or books?
reply
Wow credit for fast food! What about toilet paper? The companies producing toilet paper can't just run a "tab" for their good customers
reply
I can't tell if this is sarcasm, or do you honestly consider credit for fast food a good thing. I hesitate because I know that in America people buy everything with credit (or at least a lot), so it's possible some people think like that. But obviously not buying fast food with credit is a good thing?
reply
they shouldn't
reply
Poor people couldn't borrow and middle-class people paid really high interest rates. Credit ratings are pretty much what enabled the expansion of availability to everyone.
reply
Why should they work. We used to think that money lenders were evil.
reply
Yes, and then in the interim we invented having a hundred trillion dollars in GDP. I prefer having access to credit and so does everyone who owns a credit card. If you own a house, you didn't have its cash value when you bought it; neither your car, nor (most likely) your education. In the days of no borrowing, we solved the problem with ramshackle one-room buildings with dirt floors, handcarts, and the one book whose distributors desperately wanted everyone to have it for free.
reply
> Yes, and then in the interim we invented having a hundred trillion dollars in GDP.

And every now and then we have to rescue banks that are too big too fail at the cost of everyone else, because someone dreamed up a way to increase short term profits that involves giving loans to people who will never pay them back.

> neither your car,

Praising a trillion dollar GDP, but can't afford a used car.

reply
> If you own a house, you didn't have its cash value when you bought it; neither your car, nor (most likely) your education

When I grew up I was told to not make debts if not needed. So many older people did indeed save up until they could afford a car or a house. Education was always mostly free where I lived.

Nowadays it seems like ordinary people would need to pay off a house their whole life and thus also need to keep income high enough to keep paying installments. This takes away so much freedom from people as they are trapped in their high paying jobs...

reply
> If you own a house, you didn't have its cash value when you bought it;

> we solved the problem with ramshackle one-room buildings with dirt floors,

there is a fallacy here. People with access to debt bid up the price of an asset, like a house, against other peoples’ similar access to debt. Sans debt access, the solution was not necessarily a small ramshackle house. The fallacy is the belief that the same asset price - whether opulent or ramshackle house, wouldn’t adjust to the reduced level from the bidding environment. The differential cost of construction for a nicer house can be countenanced in the access-to-debt case, but that is second order.

Illustrative straw-man example: Suppose, once one had a parcel of land, that it was trivial to construct one’s ‘starter home’ the ramshackle house if you like. Get one’s family and friends to help build in exchange for future return favors. As one advances in life, rebuild to have something more opulent. The rub is in the parcel itself. Unlike the would-be house, it had no cost built-in, just whatever price the previous owner was willing to accept to release their parcel. That parcel’s (and those around it) price reflects the market’s access to debt, or lack of access to debt. In the market without access to debt, parcel pricing reflects which buyers have accrued more savings vs other buyers. In the market with access to debt, parcel pricing reflects who can access more debt (through the various means we know of today - down payment ability yes, which parallels the non-debt’s savings case, someone co-signing, long term expected future earning potential vs someone retired, the parcel itself put up as collateral, perhaps other non-immobile assets put up as collateral, like the family oxcart).

The point is that there isn’t necessarily a 1:1 coupling between market’s debt vs non-debt access and whether the construction is opulent vs ramshackle.

reply
> I prefer having access to credit and so does everyone who owns a credit card.

A good number of European countries have only half the poverty rates - the dirt floors and carts you're talking about - of the US yet barely use credit cards.

reply
deleted
reply
You send them digitally signed statements from other lenders (who are legally required to give them for free with accurate info) or independent rating agencies, they evaluate them and make a decision. They can have their own model or license one from FICO.

That does mean banks can't know if you lie by omission and hide some unpaid bills, but they can raise the evidence requirements to compensate and I think everyone deserves a second chance.

reply
Having someone vouch for you.
reply
deleted
reply
It is illegal, if it's PII without explicit consent.
reply