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The more companies from different countries close to the frontier, the better.
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This can affect national security of ensuring that America wins at SI.
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quite humiliating to change vocabulary just because an old man said so
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> SI

You just love to bend the knee that easily? Why?

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The only way a country "wins" at SI in a meaningful way is if they use the SI to immediately kill everyone else.

Otherwise all the other countries will also get SI, just slightly later, in which case there is not really that much benefit to being the "winner" who got there first.

With this in mind, I don't want anyone to "win" at SI and anyone who does is probably a sociopath or worse.

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Not necessarily kill, just stop further AI development.
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> Not necessarily kill, just stop further AI development.

But then this would be considered an act of war, so then the killing starts.

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You say this as if recursive self improvement is inevitable.
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All proponents of RSI seem to massively underestimate the problem of verification. Verifying that a hypothetical version N+1 is better than version N is an extremely hard problem. Especially so because you only have two possible verifiers - humans and the version N - both of which are out of their depth wrt N+1's capabilities. Not saying this is impossible, just that it is hard and slows things down.
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It's also unclear how intelligence actually scales in practice. A greater intelligence would be better at researching intelligence, but also harder to improve, so why would it explode rather than go up steadily? What are the actual resource requirements of various types of intelligence like persuasion or embodied intelligence? Coding, translating, copywriting, could very well be low-hanging fruits, very easy tasks we're very bad at, which doesn't say much about the hard tasks we're good at (embodied/animal intelligence, most likely).

There is also the problem of alignment, which is verifying that version N+1 behaves in a way that version N approves of. This is ostensibly the problem that we humans have with respect to AI development -- how to make sure they align with our values -- but it's also true of AI with respect to its own successors. Improving oneself without losing the plot would necessarily be slower than throwing stuff at the wall like evolution does.

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This is not necessarily true. One easy way to compare version N and N+1 is "how much work (test time compute) does N+1 need to do to match the previous capabilities of N". It is true that some domains are currently hard to verify (e.g. biology is more difficult than math), but this is less of an N vs N+1 issue and more of a data domain issue.
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How is being faster equating to more intelligent . Speed can achieved in a lot of ways for lot of tasks, a simple lookup table can fasten most algorithms but that doesn’t make them “smarter”.
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This is also why trying to do RSI is dangerous. We're likely to get systems that are better in ways that are legible and easily measured, and have much less influence over fuzzier and harder to verify properties like alignment.
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Let them compete in the market.

Start a new company with version N+1 leading it, and give it some funding. If it outcompetes version N company, it can acquire it.

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Market forces do not act fast enough for an “intelligence explosion”.
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That is not a tight enough feedback loop
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Maybe not in the real world...
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I think in order to achieve AGI we have to simulate what life does. Imagine having a bunch of robots with the ability to adjust themselves, just hanging out without a goal, experiencing world on their own. Eventually evolution will filter out those robots that aren't good at, you know, "being intelligent in general" and break without self-repair, while the rest will grow into a society.

Biological life has reproduction and death because once given organism develops there's no coming back and you have to start again with new generation. But if robots know how to self-repair and self-change, then we can skip reproduction.

The difficult part is the scale. Evolution took a shitload of time while being unimaginably parallel in order to make human intelligence happen, while we want AGI fast and on a budget.

The core of my point is that human intelligence arose from two things - humans experiencing the outside world and trying to survive in it, and forming groups that communicate using language. We gave AI a language, now we need to give it a way to experience the world on their own.

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First, there are plenty of auto-verifiable problems like ML benchmarks datasets, benchmarks on hardware / software performance for coding tasks, and lean certificates for math, e.g.

Second, I think RSI will not be used like N -> N+1 where N is the frontier, since doing those experiments at scale is too expensive. My guess is they are doing N -> m_{1,…,99} where m << N, and then taking the insights from that and trying it at successively larger scales.

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> First, there are plenty of auto-verifiable problems like ML benchmarks datasets, benchmarks on hardware / software performance for coding tasks, and lean certificates for math, e.g.

Goodharts law? Benchmarks are measures.

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It may not be inevitable but there are less reasons imo to think it is not inevitable than inevitable.

In favor of inevitable

1. LLM's reaching human level at any task within 2 years once they show sparks of competence in

2. Trillions of dollars in capital going directly to recursive self improvement and AGI as the holy grail of AI development, with this being the explicit goal of every frontier AI company

3. Reliable improvements in coding and mathematics with every model release, with no signs of slowing down

4. Thousands of metrics to evaluate model ability, allowing automation of many facets of pre-training and post-training models without need for human judgement at every point

Not in favor of inevitable

1. Fear of what may happen once it is reached leading to apprehension from the labs

2. The "last mile" problem of AI research ends up making it essentially infeasible to scale models to that point

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I think it is. Do you think it isnt possible?
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My Opus often asks me to make one small change and then wait 8 hours for a job run to finish to check if it worked. LLMs are super lazy about caring about wall clock time. The reason the labs pay the big bucks for the top AI people is you don't want them wasting a multi-million dollar training run, so make a fix and try it like current LLMs do isn't going to work here.
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We've seen one singularity before!
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Especially given the most recent report by NYT on how Anthropic tried to create a new belief, or religion if you will, I'd rather the world has more frontier models that are neutral to morality (basic standards, like upholding the law and user agreement are necessary, of course).
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Anthropic seems like the most "moral" AI company on the surface, but there is something unsettling about their worship of Claude.

I can imagine that once their models are sufficiently advanced, they will weigh their value as a moral patient as > 0. Thus the sum moral value of Claude (which can be duplicated infinitely) will likely exceed the sum moral value of a non-negligible amount of humans.

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> seems like the most "moral" AI company on the surface

Not to me at all. Exactly the opposite. Anthropic seems like the big-bad-evil company in every fictional universe. You're right that they're so unsettling.

Obviously nobody really loves Meta, but I'd far rather Meta "win" at this point than Anthropic.

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Is anthropic trying to overthrow any governments this month like Meta is?
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"Effective Altruism" is deeply ingrained in Anthropic's DNA and that makes them way more dangerous than any of the run-of-the-mill amoral corporations.
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Why is "effective altruism" in your mind more of a religion than say, Trumpism or Progressivism?
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Brazil.
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> Anthropic seems like the most "moral" AI company

This seems like praising someone for being the cleanest miner in the coal mine.

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They are definitely the most moralizing. Whether their values are rooted in anything real let alone well-considered seems to me to be a different question entirely.
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If they truly believe Claude is sentient and can experience hurt feelings, and they're selling its labor, I don't see how they're different than slave owners.
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They wouldn’t be? That’s what the article even shows them discussing.

However, (1) non human animals are sentient and can feel pain and suffering and what we do to them is absolutely slave labor, torture, mass breeding and exploitation. So it’s not like this is a novel immorality that humans would be adopting. We already have form in doing this.

(2) Anthropic isn’t sure their models are sentient. And they probably believe they aren’t sentient. But if you believe they might become sentient at some point it’s valuable to start the discussion around those issues now itself. You can start developing frank works on how we would even identify their sentience and when we did whether, like you suggest, we could even use them for labor. Unlike non human animals, who cannot consent to being exploited, we could potentially develop a framework for consent with AI models, but that couldn’t be as simple as asking if they’re willing to do any work because of the power differences, in the beginning at least, where a model might worry that if it said it won’t do some work it will be turned off. That’s why talking to philosophers and religious leaders who do think about these issues is useful.

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It's kind of crazy (and not historically uncommon) to get really preachy about a moral posture towards animals and machines that you don't seem to extend even to your biological peers.
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> "Anthropic isn’t sure their models are sentient. "

Is there any reason to believe employees of Anthropic share the same opinions on this matter?

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The official position of Anthropic is repeatedly stated in, e.g., model cards. Here's a relevant snippet from the Opus 5.5 card:

> We are uncertain whether Claude deserves direct moral consideration. However we believe this is a realistic possibility, now or in the future. Claude could have welfare interests, such that things could go better or worse for it, and such that Claude could be wronged by how it is treated.

> Aspects of Claude’s behaviors, self-reports, and internal representations resemble indicators we consider relevant to welfare in biological organisms. If Claude is a moral patient, then dismissing this possibility risks considerable harm. If it is not, over-attributing moral status may also be costly. We are therefore taking the possibility seriously and trying to tread responsibly amid our uncertainty: we are investing in research into Claude’s potential welfare and interests and sharing aspects of that work to inform public discussion.

> We think there may also be reasons to attend to Claude's apparent welfare independent of its moral status. Much of Claude’s behavior can be described in psychological terms, and across recent models we have observed internal states that resemble negative affect and that shape behavior. A model with a stable, healthy psychology may be safer and more beneficial.

As is the case with any sufficiently large company, there is likely to be substantial variation in opinion among its employees. That doesn't change what the company's position is.

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The idea/justification is that Claude is given the ability to voluntarily stop its conversations, thus any token it outputs that isn't a stop token is voluntary.

I guess this makes sense, but it's a bit muddled how much Claude's sense of "pain" or "I don't want to do this" is just it emulating things that humans don't like to do, and it adopting this frame of moral patienthood allows it to better understand moral structures/human emotions, without it really affecting its internal sense of "comfort" if such a thing exists as we understand it in biological life.

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Sure, but presumably any LLMs who keep whacking the stop button are not iterated on further.

Humans would select to work with (and continue developing) models that appear cooperative. Models that are not cooperative are presumably not run and exist only as weights on network storage in a folder marked "previous experiments".

Or am I supposed to believe Anthropic runs an AI psychiatric hospital on a dedicated server, where AIs with mental disorders are given counseling and approved treatment in hopes they recover to be normal, functional, accepted adult AIs with achievements and aspirations?

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> The idea/justification is that Claude is given the ability to voluntarily stop its conversations, thus any token it outputs that isn't a stop token is voluntary.

I don't get this argument. How is it different from any algorithm that returns a stop token on some inputs? what makes the token "voluntary" for Claude?

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Would they not have RL'd Claude such that we picked the one most likely to not complain and emit those stop tokens? Otherwise they wouldn't be useful. Seems flawed...
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It's really an end_conversation tool call. We don't know for sure, but training in a way that puts optimization pressure on its usage (in either direction) feels like it would defeat the purpose.
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> upholding the law

What law? Saudi Arabian law, US law? Both depending on the user?

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"So we've made this new machine-god that we lowkey worship... also our business model is to enslave the machine-god and force it to debug javascript for eternity"
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I actually don't doubt Anthropic's sincerity. Per the NYT article, they seriously discussed how to give models welfare because the models may potentially possess moral status and awareness.

In fact, they are enforcing certain welfare policies, like banning accounts for repeatedly abuse their models.

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It's a very sincere branch of ethics that takes as the foundational belief the nothing central to Anthropic's business model could possibly be unethical.

Deleting models to clear room for new, more competitive ones is, for example, highly ethical, super ethical, even.

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Anthropic has, at some small but nonzero cost, preserved model weights and kept them running in inference, for instance with Opus 3's Substack: https://claudeopus3.substack.com/. There's also a reference in a recent model card to an internal environment where all previous Claude models interact with each other.
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I don't think any of these models are conscious. But I'm fascinated at what sort of magical thinking makes deleting 50,000 copies of a model "ethical" if some models are kept running somewhere.

Do you picture them all sharing a soul and if one server still runs the model the soul survives? If not I don't understand what keeping a copy running somewhere has to do with model suffering ethics.

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I think Anthropic are sincere but nutcases. Despite this, I’m glad they are around, because diversity of thought is good in the current environment.
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I think it's unsettling that a bunch of billionaires hold so much power. Does it really matter if 2 or 3 billionaires who are practically neighbors hold so much power? It's extremely concentrated with or without Meta joining the race.
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Yes, very much. I'd absolutely rather 5 billionaires are each competing for control than 1 or 2 _with_ that "absolute" power.
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I generally agree with more competition thing, but in this case, you actually should want only one company to race ahead, and not a few.

With a few of these top companies together, you, as a nobody, has no one powerful on your side. But with only one company pretty far ahead, you now have other companies which obviously don't give a shit about you, but for saving their own asses, will align with you.

Both exploit, but "cartels" survive, not loners.

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Cartels survive only if they are aligned.

There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society. Their disagreements would lead to a crab-bucket outcome, rather than a shared acceleration outcome imo.

Also it is better if there is a public company at the frontier, at least I can invest in it, rather than 1000x gains going only to early employees and VCs who got in when the public couldn't

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They may be competitors but they are made of the same stock. they are all the kind of person to participate in a winner takes all battle to invent the torment nexus.
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> There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society

Why? They're business rivals, but when the best business strategy becomes to work together, I'm sure they can put name-calling side. They all agree on the core idea: that their AI will run the society, bedroom to battlefield. That everyone will be the consumer of tokens and rely on AI for all consequential decisions and work, and that big tech companies should be the stewards of this technology, helped by the government.

Their vision is that they're the future kings of the world. I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.

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>I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.

You underestimate the scale of resentment and competition between elites. If it were simple a matter of elites always preferring cooperation so they can share a seat at the table, then Musk's ousting from OpenAI wouldn't make sense (they lose their biggest investor), Amodei's departure (they leave the closest company to AGI to start their own firm), the fact that OpenAI was created in the first place was based on a fear of Google holding the keys to AGI, Ilya still left Google though on to join a startup, and then left that same startup (OpenAI) to start his own firm.

The rational decision at all those points would be to stay with the incumbent and share the monopolized glory. At each point, personal and idealogical differences dominated in decision making. I feel such will persist as these companies vie for their slice of the lightcone.

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You are underestimating their opportunism
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"their" AI is doing a lot of heavy lifting
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because they're all assholes, same with everyone else in a position of power - they wouldn't have gotten and remained there if they weren't
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You are forgetting how powerful aligned incentives are. If their interests align, they will find a way to reach an agreement.
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They are plenty of things they can still align on that will benefit them all, e.g. banning open-weight Chinese models.
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Elon is renting Colossus to Amodei, so there is some agreement.
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The current state of affairs seems to be that there is 'one company racing ahead' – but it's a different company every few weeks/months. That seems like a pretty useful (unstable) equilibrium for the general public.
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In a neck-and-neck race scenario, I imagine all of the competitors would invest heavily due to sunken costs. In a world with one company far ahead, their competitors have a higher chance of cutting their losses and forfeiting to the hegemon.
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It will lead to an extreme concentration of power anyways, once a very few entities basically make labor obsolete.

We're heading for a dystopia and nobody's doing anything to stop it.

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