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> These are companies that use hundreds of thousands of stolen credit cards to sign up for fake accounts.

You claim VISA and other credit card companies don't mind if merchants like DeepSeek steal hundreds of thousands of credit cards and use them? And still continue to give them merchant accounts to continue with that?

Isn't it more likely that some people are scaremongering?

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Of course credit card companies mind? It's not a problem they can magically solve just because they mind, though. Credit card fraud on massive scale has existed for years and is not going away anytime soon.

> And still continue to give them merchant accounts to continue with that?

The AI companies don't steal the credit cards. They instead fund unaffiliated grey-market transfer stations that steal credit cards. They feign compliance by simply funding another transfer station.

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Because OpenAI and Anthropic are so virtuous and trustworthy?
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Those companies thought they were interacting only with an entity in a country they trust, and instead had their data sent to a country they don't. If I'm sending you my data I'd like to know beforehand if it's being relayed to another country.
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What an absurd question. We have actual evidence of DeepSeek using stolen credit cards and routing conversations to third parties. What evidence do we have of OpenAI or Anthropic doing something similar?

"Anthropic/OpenAI bad!" cynicism is not a replacement for critical thinking (as it increasingly seems to be on HN).

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What evidence? You didn't link any. Searching for the hints in your comments brings up marketing by Anthropic "data you sent to one company is being sent to another without your knowledge or consent!" Anthropic also states this without any evidence, but I'm not suggesting it's not true!

I am so glad we never see stories against Anthropic/OpenAI claiming that! Thankfully we don't even have to search, critical thinking is enough to know that Anthropic/OpenAI are responsible data sovereign and others are not.

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Nothing short of unredacted network logs and packet dumps would convince people like you (and even then you could just say they are forged). In the eyes of HN the Chinese model providers can do no wrong.

Anyways, they can easily be sued by DeepSeek if they are lying.

> critical thinking is enough to know that Anthropic/OpenAI are responsible data sovereign and others are not

Critical thinking is not relying on a confirmed bad actor because you think the others maybe could be bad actors.

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You still haven't posted a single link. Should we all just take your word for it? Are you the primary source, solenoid0937?
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If you're looking for the engineering blog post, you can Google it. Welcome to the internet!
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So you're pushing a conspiracy theory, have no evidence to back it up, and you expect everyone else to do google searches to substantiate your claims. I see. Well, have a nice day then.
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Feel free to hand your business's data over to DeepSeek, that's not my problem.
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It's just as much a marketing blog post, but I'm not entirely unconvinced, just unsurprised. AI companies fundamentally all want the same thing: unrestricted access to everyone's data. I'm not planning on relying on any of them if I can help it.

For others, here's your blog post:

https://www.anthropic.com/threat-intelligence-report-septemb...

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Is there any evidence though? Of the stolen credit cards being used by deepseek? You said there was “actual evidence”, what is it?
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> We have actual evidence of DeepSeek using stolen credit cards

Do we? Anthropic made allegations, but have they substantiated them?

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What level of evidence would convince you? Raw packet dumps?

DeepSeek could sue for defamation if they are lying. There's a reason they aren't.

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Well, any evidence would be better than nothing. All I saw was a blog post with some conclusory statements, but I didn't dig into this. (It wasn't a rhetorical question.)
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Anthropic could probably use the same institution to call for justice, no?
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No, distillation isn't a crime so Anthropic can't sue for it.

Credit card fraud and the illegal data routing is a crime, but that's something the affected customers would need to sue for.

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I'm not sure makes sense to white knight for openAI and Anthropic. There are no good guys here.
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This is a very Redditor comment, you're equivocating "don't use bad API" with a defense of OpenAI/Anthropic.

There is a difference between "white-knighting" and pointing out that maybe businesses shouldn't use an API that has been proven to illegally route data elsewhere, resulting in literal state secrets being leaked.

There is nothing wrong with using DeepSeek's models locally or on your own cloud, and using another search provider! But using DeepSeek's own APIs is pure idiocy unless you really don't care about your data security/privacy (and that of your users).

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You've been breaking the site guidelines badly by posting like this. You've also been posting dozens of hostile replies to a specific user across many threads, which is clearly over the line as well.

We ban accounts that do these things, so if you'd please stop doing them, we'd appreciate that. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules in the future, we'd appreciate that as well.

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You've also been repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. I realize that when someone posts dozens of hostile replies, it's a provocation, but please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the rules yourself. That only makes things worse. Instead, follow this guideline (and emailing hn@ycombinator.com about cases of abuse is also a good idea):

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You've also been breaking the rules in other contexts, including crossing into personal attack in your own right (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50095592). That's not cool either.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules in the future, that would be good.

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Do you work for anthropic?
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Nope.

If you're asking about my biases: I am significantly invested in AI (all US labs including Anthropic/OpenAI, and the hardware supply chain) because I believe it will be the most transformative tech in human history. I am also American, and so I'd prefer not to have a nation that blends thousands of human rights activists getting to superintelligence first.

My investments in the frontier have grown so I do not claim to be unbiased.

Another bias - I think HN's user base is on average consistently shortsighted when it comes to this technology:

1/ The HN zeitgeist has been consistently wrong about AI since LLMs were introduced. Old HN threads are hilarious time capsules demonstrating how headstrong+dumb the median HN opinion is. These same people post today as if they never said anything dumb a year ago, in the same overconfident and cynical tone.

2/ The median technologist's takes here are actively destructive to the likelihood of us surviving superintelligence. As technologists we all have a responsibility to ensure this goes well - our companies and societies look to our opinions. If people here introspected a bit more and reflected on the previous times they were wrong, and saw this tech for what it really is, we would all have a better chance of surviving superintelligence.

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You just cannot stop outing yourself as a paid shill. I guess it is hard for you to imagine that people do not have to visit this website every single day unlike you, because it is your job. It would have been funny if it was not so sad that people (myself included) have to read Anthropic's words you kindly post on their behalf.
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Why do you have to keep working as a low-paid Anthropic shill then, going to this forum every day and keep pushing your employer's propaganda?
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I don’t like OpenAI or Anthropic’s attitude towards the law but this whataboutism.
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Completely fake. Those companies used relay stations, or third party gateways, to access Anthropic models. https://x.com/trydotworks/status/2098300730805284961?s=20
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Yes, routing your customers through relays is probably illegal and certainly violates any expectation a business using your API might have.

I don't think that X post from someone that sells relays is meaningful. Obviously Anthropic is aware of what relays are, they aren't dumb enough to conflate relays with DeepSeek.

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