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Most people in the industry right now, even at FAANG and even among people carrying "senior" titles at these places, have little experience with "software design principles" -- tens of thousands of brilliant Ivy League graduates with surreal compensation packages have spent the last decade pulling tickets off JIRA and pasting least-change-possible patches onto existing code for about 10 hours a week while spending the other 30+ hours barely engaged at meetings.
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This hurt to read but checks out in my experience. These types also tend to love tossing debt over silo'd walls and pointing the finger a lot if/when anything goes wrong.

I'm old enough now to be a protected class, so I don't want people accusing me of ageism, because that's not where this is coming from - but there's a type of person that clearly is on their last job of their career and knows it and I try to avoid them like the plague, I've seen it too many times.

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I work on my code this way, but I have no idea what my colleagues are doing, and it's impossible to review thousands of new/changed lines a week.

I just approve PRs, because I have to. I don't know what else to do. I can barely keep an eye on all my code.

Actively looking, but job market is rough in Northern Europe. I quit caring about quality in any capacity here, the company has clearly chosen its direction, against my very vocal complaints.

My last interview, with what I thought was a great company, failed when I didn't understand what NLP was when they asked me about it.

> NLP? > Natural Language Programming, it's the future. Claude, GPT, etc.

I laughed, he didn't, looked offended and said it was a serious question. I had thought it was a joke, said "oh you mean LLMs". I tried to answer seriously, of course, but that was my third round technical interview and I didn't get a call back.

Just getting a paycheck and producing mediocre work until I get something new. (Senior engineer, 10 YOE, patents, 3 years at a unicorn).

Also considering becoming an electrician.

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I will be unhappy if they steal the meaning of NLP. NLP means Natural Language Processing and LLMs are only a subset of NLP. I would have concerns about anyone who claims to have technical knowledge and asserts NLP means "natural language programming." Those are the same kind of people who might suggest Lisp should add mutable objects.
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You may be surprised and annoyed that NLP is also "Neuro linguistic programming", I've met technical people talking of NLP and meaning that...
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Yes, but that's in psychology. Different fields have their own terms without causing too many issues. Communication breaks down when we reuse terms for different things within the same field.
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More like parapsychology...
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I'm in what I think will be my last tech job before retraining into something else. The aspects I like about the work are gone, I'm coasting at a small company that's not a great fit, has a visa cliff, and is poorly paid, and the steps it would take to become competitive in an LLM driven tech job market are less appealing to me than the steps it would take to switch over to a different career (likely in healthcare).
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Good luck! I took the plunge last year and am just finishing up med school pre-requisites. I'd say at least 6/30 of my O Chem II class are former software engineers.
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Thank you! I'm still in a very exploratory phase about what exactly I mean by switching into healthcare. I don't have prereqs done at all, and my current plan is to enroll in a second bachelor's next year and start working through bio and chem courses. I'm looking at a bunch of different options from nursing to PA school to medical physics, and I think I really need to start shadowing people in different professions.

Med school interests me, but I'm a woman in my late 20s who would like to have children, and if I started down the med school road now I wouldn't be done with training until my late 30s, where PA and nursing school don't have that problem. Medical physics is kind of in the middle.

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Yeah, I imagine it's something that needs to be enforced at the organizational level. I sympathize with anyone who takes pride in their work and needs to deal with mindless coworkers pushing slop without any accountability. I left corporate software development (before LLMs were a thing) over frustration with the general culture and I can only imagine it's gotten worse since then.
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It's really bad now, yeah. :( It just really hurts that I spent well over a decade of my life learning and honing skills to engineer safe, quality software and now it's just, useless.

No one cares at best, or I'm callously told "keep up or fall behind" at worst. When that's not even the problem, it just, sucks now. There's no joy in anything I do professionally.

Can I ask where you went? I'm seriously looking for an exit, I just don't know what yet. Maybe a trade, in Scandinavia the pay is actually comparable, I just don't want to go back to school.

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It just really hurts that I spent well over a decade of my life learning and honing skills to engineer safe, quality software and now it's just, useless.

It can feel that way with all the hype but I very much doubt that is really true. I see an industry that is rapidly dividing into two camps - "move fast and break things" and "this actually needs to work". Writing everything with agents and merging while barely even checking what is in the PR has become standard practice in the former but it will get you laughed out of the room in the latter.

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I was fortunate and saved up enough to live frugally and just work on passion/learning projects for a while. I've been considering going back into commercial software development as a solo dev and leveraging AI, but keeping the focus on quality and craftsmanship. In my opinion there's never been a better time to start a new, ambitious project if you're passionate about quality software.
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Sounds like a cushy job. Why would you want to leave?
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Some people just can't turn off their brains and play drone for dozens of hours a week for decades. It feels existentially, aesthetically, and sometimes ethically crushing to spend a whole life doing work you can't expect yourself to respect or value, no matter how much you get paid or how little the work overtly demands of you.

Often, the lack of meaningfully challenging demands being put on you is punishing on its own. It can feel like a relief for a week or month or year, but if you catch a glimpse of that being your whole future, you can come to recognize yourself as being in a mind-eroding secular purgatory.

This anguish is especially common among on highly capable people, high achievers, and those used to some kind of ambition. And by accident of its history, there's a lot of those people in this industry and some of them are going nuts now.

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> This anguish is especially common among on highly capable people, high achievers, and those used to some kind of ambition. And by accident of its history, there's a lot of those people in this industry and some of them are going nuts now.

I went nuts for years, until I sold off my interest in my dream partnership.

10 years of heaven. All the benefits and none of the downsides of my internal colleagues. Then 14 years of bureaucracy aimed at predictability over progress, which was infinitely more difficult for me to dodge as an external player.

Compensation for my interest was very objectively valued, with the rate of stalled progress priced in. Which made complete sense, while also being its own madness.

I walked away from so much value, but I don't regret it for a minute.

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> and some of them are going nuts now.

Pretty much this. I know it sounds melodramatic but it literally feels like rotting.

I don't solve anything anymore. I don't get any spark of fixing bugs. I don't DO ANYTHING, and it's fucking chipping away at me.

Also I'm fairly sure people are going to realise soon that if they're happy with slop, they don't actually need highly trained engineers anymore.

This whole thread actually prompted me to look into electrician work, especially in renewables that we have here in Norway.

I might fix my burnout and go to school to get my 2 year qualification. AI can't rewire a hydro dam.

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Man, I have the same feeling. A long time in your life you build the career and now it’s just feeling so empty, like you are not a engineer anymore, now everyone can use AI and without checking code they would have good results.
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I'd forgotten why I'd stopped commenting here. Thanks for reminding me, everyone.
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it sounds soul-destroying
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The LLMs know design principles too, being an experienced developer doesn't make you as special as you might think.
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Don't get me wrong, LLMs are way better than me at most things, but I don't think you can deny that the current generation of models makes questionable decisions sometimes. Especially on project structure, API boundaries, and code duplication. I also think they just have bad taste in general, though of course that's more subjective.
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I’m not sure how to say this without sounding smug, but the last year has shown that most of those things just… don’t matter. It’s just the next level of the “variable naming PR comment battle”, so will become obsolete very soon.

Obviously there are mission critical systems where it matters, but if “your code can be A/B tested” or “slowly rolled out”, chances are, it doesn’t matter.

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You'll find that design matters when token spend starts facing real accounting.

Tech debt is still tech debt, even if there exist models that can wade through, because it's going to require increasingly sophisticated models navigating increasingly large context windows and increasingly speculative workspace operations to keep making progress on it.

Vendors like Anthropic and OpenAI are laying a pit trap when they demonstrate how their models can independently code their whole platform as it becomes increasingly byzantine and inscrutable because not only do they benefit from internal/prerelease models but they have effectively unlimited spend because all that spending acts as a lure to draw you into their trap.

For everybody else, design still matters. People are just working really hard to make you forget.

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Honestly, I keep hearing this argument, but the past 2 years have shown the opposite. OAI/Ant are not the only companies providing inference.

There are legitimate FAANG-like companies that have general guidelines about “when to use Fable/GLM/DS” and etc. to keep the costs down. And I think it’ll continue that way.

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> I don't think you can deny that the current generation of models makes questionable decisions sometimes

Sometimes, not enough to believe you that you can do it better. And even if you could, to believe that it's overall worth it to work in that way.

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To be fair, if LLMs were good at decisions, we would not need people.
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You can work the way you want to work. In my experience, letting the agent make every decision leads to a big ball of mud that requires touching dozens of files to make a change. More context is needed, it burns through tokens much faster, and the agent takes shortcuts and builds technical debt. So the way I prefer to work is to have changes targeted to a single file or small set of files where I've defined the API. Maybe that will change in the future, I'm not set in stone here.
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> In my experience, letting the agent make every decision leads to a big ball of mud that requires touching dozens of files to make a change

It seems too early to make any conclusion like that. We've still only been doing agentic coding for a year and capability significantly improved during that time. I don't think anybody on either side of this debate can have actual empirical evidence to support conclusions about where it lands longer term.

The main argument I see is that it probably pays to be slightly conservative because the cost of being wrong by maintaining too much oversight and shipping slightly less code is better than the cost of ending up with an entirely unmaintainable system. In some cases it will be more than "slightly less" but in almost all complex pre-existing systems, you are rate limited by a lot of other factors outside of code production, so the effective difference just isn't that high.

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At agentic coding velocity, tech debt becomes obvious much more quickly. Empirical evidence is a bit of a ridiculous bar to hold for software development - we are as quantitatively blind now as we have ever been - but at least for me the anecdotal evidence is very clear. Today's agents hill-climb and their software architecture is pretty reliably bad without a human in the loop.

And it's debatable how much better they will get quickly. Verifiable rewards for maintainability of software is, I think, possible but very hard.

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When I said "in my experience" I meant literally that, my experience so far. I'm not making any predictions. I'm definitely anticipating things improving at a rapid pace, which is why I think it's good to run frequent experiments. If in a month I find that an agent can one-shot a 20k line project without creating an unreadable, unmaintainable mess, that will be great.
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What still is true for all fields of LLMs: if you can’t tell they do it suboptimally, you are just not that knowledgable in that area.

It still applies to all things LLms can do from law to code to art to ideas.

They can do it - and very acceptably - but only to the untrained eye.

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> doesn't make you as special as you might think.

Way to come off as incredibly insecure. There's no need to randomly put people down.

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I'm not the one who's claiming to be above the latest models in some aspect of coding in this interaction.
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No one at all claimed that, certainly not the person you responded to. They're talking about how to use these tools in a way that gives you insight into what they produce. So, as an engineer, you know the shape of the output, before it's made.

That's it. Maybe you should go re-read?

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Why is that so hard to believe? I don't always do this, but I do course-correct Claude on almost every big change. YOLOing it would superficially look fine, until the latent issues catch up with you.
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Maybe they are?
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I've been doing this a long time and i would say since the last 3 months or so i've spent more time learning from llm code than correcting llm code. It's not bad and takes approaches and makes decisions i wouldn't have thought of. I'm not too ashamed to admit that, a model just as access wider and deeper experience with code than I do.
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The LLMs have been trained on all kinds of code. They often choose a hacky solution because that's what they encountered in similar situations in their training. It generally only takes a few words to guide them to a better design than what they saw in the wild, but if you don't guide them, they follow the herd.
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It generally only takes a few words to guide them to a better design than what they saw in the wild, but if you don't guide them, they follow the herd.

That certainly can be true but I would challenge "generally". If you're working on something novel then it's not exactly unusual for even SOTA models to produce a first attempt that makes some very bad assumptions but then get stuck when instructed to use correct axioms instead. This looks a lot like the suduko meme - without any real insight into the problem the models end up just iterating around in circles and never finding a solution.

You probably won't see this very often if you're working on simple CRUD web applications where there are millions if not billions of lines of code in the training data set. IME you will probably see it quite frequently if you're working on - for example - software to control some kind of equipment or analyse the results of some kind of experiment where the LLM might have little if any training data about the field you're operating in.

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That's a great perspective. Come to think of it, I wonder about the quality of the build123d code it generated when I vibe-coded a prototype complex assembly. Now I'm curious.
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