Today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50467297
Yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50455394
Two days Ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50438261
It's a bit odd (?!).
In general - I am wondering how engineering interviews change in the age of LLMs, Jane Street, tech-wise is a "thought leader", at least having opinions, sharing them is part of how they recruit "the best", i think oxide does this too.
So in some way, in this time of change it makes sense that they are noisy... It also makes sense that the noises they make may filter down...
Mind going more into this, since you named a specific person? Did he make some prominent statement?
What I learned over time is that first, the pool of people who regularly submit to HN is surprisingly small, so if they have interest in a particular set of topics, these topics are overrepresented in the queue; and second, relatively few people patrol new submissions and the the first 3-4 upvotes in the first 15 minutes decide if something bubbles up to the front page or not. These folks often go by keywords / vibes / employer associations, so again, certain topics get an advantage that's unrelated to the merit of the story.
More generally, I think there's been a significant drop in topic diversity on HN over the past year. Almost everything on the front page is related in some way to AI or to companies on the forefront of AI. It's almost as if there's nothing else going on in tech or in the broader world. If you go to some other aggregators, you get a different view.
There are pretty few companies out there like this. Being relatively small probably helps; everyone knows someone that worked at Mag7 and maybe has a bad story to share, but this is more rare.
I never heard of them.
If not for HN, I would never know they existed.
I don't think the remark about "nerd prestige" holds, but beyond that your points boil down to marketing.
And how an unknown company changed its hiring practices is hardly front page news.
Like I said, they are relatively small but they are definitely not “unknown”. Out of curiosity, could you name any quantitative trading firm, or trading firms in general? You specifically may happen to just not be paying much attention to this sector.
What is the deal with it though? Daily front page content in various forms starts to raise eyebrows.
first, a coding problem that is solved live (right now, online) -- it's not a hard one and most LLMs can easily one shot it.
BUT: if you are not a senior developer, you need to do it without LLM, and if you are a senior+ and do it via LLM, the bar is super raised and now you need to explain in details everything the LLM wrote as if you wrote it yourself.
the main component here is to know if the candidate understands coding in general, understands problem solving and how to dive into an existing (although quite small) codebase. solving the problem is not really the goal -- in fact, most candidates we hired did not solve it 100%, but were able to understand and explain everything that they put it on code. this usually takes 1h30.
(we also ask the candidate to open a PR against the repo just to see if they know the basics of git -- you would be surprise how many people cannot do it).
the second is an architecture interview, where we build a system together BUT instead of doing the whole spec, miro board, whatever, we do it in more of a free way: we start with a really simple, MVP level, spec and we ask how the candidate would build it. then, we add another feature, and we ask how they would go for it. during this whole thing, i ask random questions like "why would you use x instead of y?" or "why do you prefer this approach?".
one important thing: we allow the candidate to say "i don't know" and we tell the candidate that there's no gotcha questions (which is true, i hate these kind of questions). this lets the candidate be super comfortable (feedback we had from real people).
in general, this flow helped us a ton and i really really like running it :)
(edit: spelling)
Though ideally interviewers should appreciate this - unless its a hard requirement you do it by hand day to day - the rest of us can look this up quick enough.
My OS professor in college once told us about what he considered the difference between "knowledge" and "information", with "knowledge" being the underlying facts about how something works and "information" being the terminology/labeling/bucketing/etc. of how to refer to it. The point he made was that knowledge was more important than information, and that he would try to test us on knowledge rather than information. To me, knowing how the underlying version control model works and what "shapes" you might want to make with it is useful knowledge. The exact set of commands, interactions with an IDE, or specific prompts you can use to ask an LLM to produce them is information. Arguably the entire benefit of LLMs is that you can ask them to do things even if you don't have the exact information memorized; if you can describe it in a rigorous way, and recognize whether what it gives you as an output fits that or not, you don't need to know any of the actual information of how to do it manually.
Because LLMs aren't a reason to not learn your tools. A determinist CLI command vs using a statistical machine for it. It's just a waste of tokens at the very least.
I don't disagree that having a deterministic CLI is useful, but I'd argue that's not the question here, because the CLI is what the statistical machine will be using. The question is whether the time spend doing it manually is worthwhile compared to the tokens spend on it. I'd argue that if you instead learn how to pick the right model for the right job so that you don't use something way more expensive than needed for the task at hand, the token overhead will be extremely minimal for stuff like git operations; knowing that you can use something cheaper than like, Astra or Opus if all you want to do is a quick git cleanup and push is going to save your employer a lot more money in the long run than if you insist on doing every messy rebase by hand.
One time setup commands are the sort of thing people do once when setting up the repo, but dont use day to day. its understandable that people dont have that memorized and will reach for a man page, google or an AI.
Some 6-figure per year developer spending a quarter’s worth of tokens to do something they do once a month or so is not something I’ll ever care to optimize away…
Personally I ask the LLM to summarise what the commit does and explain it to me, make sure I understand it, then review the PR. I'm getting half the speed the High Speed Sloperators are getting but I was the only person submitting PRs the other day when the LLM service was down.
For nasty multi-way git merges and rebases, it's been a game changer. And of course that's reviewable by doing a delta on the final rebase branch vs. the original branch.
With all that said... having to use LLMs at work is making me want to use them less on my own projects.
we also ask the candidate to open a PR against the repo just to see if they know the basics of git
A candidate may be able to open a PR and not be able to make a commit without an IDE.
Another candidate might know plenty of git, but haven't worked with Github.
How does that work? Git has no concept of pull requests.
I've heard this multiple times now and it still boggles my mind that git is something you have to test for.
This is more about opportunity cost because instead of asking about git, you could ask about other valuable skills in your limited time with the interviewee, but I guess if git is really that important, then it's justified.
not even joking: i've seen people with like 10y of experience trying to push to main :(
There are a lot of people telling you how they interview and why. Almost none of them have shown even the slightly indication that they are aware there there is scientific research on what works for an interview, much less that they apply it. They also are not showing any indication that they have done any testing - to see if their questions help hire better people.
If I said they could get equal results by picking resumes at random and hiring them without any other screening could they refute that? If so have they justified every part of their process or just one step that is useful and the rest they don't know?
Probably just random fluctuation.
Jane street news made it to the front page a couple times and got a lot of attention.
Now more people are recognizing the name and upvoting other Jane Street posts.
Also one of my absolute favorite programming talks ever was hosted by Jane street:
https://www.janestreet.com/tech-talks/algorithm-for-precisio...
It’s like half talk, half story. Got me super interested in logic programming, and minikanren in particular.
They don't have to do marketing, though. It's not like they sell anything to Hacker News readers, they make their money trading finantial assets
The fact that you seem to adamantly disagree that there's any plausible angle here doesn't mean it's not marketing, but it might mean that it is marketing and that it's working on you.
Such strong wording, you got that from me saying "They don't have to do marketing"?
> where did you get this impression of [...] "astronomical salaries"?
From the real world fact that the base salary is US$300k/yr, and often said that the total compensation for the first year ends up being US$700k+. Even for Manhattan + SWE jobs, surely that merits "astronomical". Other devs making that much are usually working at Anthropic or OpenAI, aren't they?
> where did you get this impression of "Very High IQ"?
You didn't copy my ™ there, which was meant to be snarky.
In any case, what I was trying to say is that they don't have to do marketing in the usual sense. They don't have to get the Jane Street logo in your subconscious so you buy a Jane St. product when you go to Kroger's, and you can't sign a Jane St. subscription plan.
People in this thread seem to be implying that the company is botting/astroturfing, but for what? To maintain the image that they're a highly sought after employer?
Anything Paul Graham posts gets upvoted here instantly, because it's Paul Graham who posted it. For Jane Street there's the same halo effect, because many believe Jane Street's work is impressive. Is it really easier to believe the idea of botting to get an even longer list of candidates to interview, than it is to believe people just like to hear what this company has to say?
I don't ever see anyone saying Paul Graham is botting posts about his "essays"
The only alternative interpretation I can think of for what you said is "they waste resources on marketing they don't need to do". I didn't think that was more likely to be your intended meaning, but you're welcome to correct me on it.
> From the real world fact that the base salary is US$300k/yr, and often said that the total compensation for the first year ends up being US$700k+.
Can you clarify where these numbers are coming from? Real world facts tend to have sources that can verify them.
> In any case, what I was trying to say is that they don't have to do marketing in the usual sense. They don't have to get the Jane Street logo in your subconscious so you buy a Jane St. product when you go to Kroger's, and you can't sign a Jane St. subscription plan.
> People in this thread seem to be implying that the company is botting/astroturfing, but for what? To maintain the image that they're a highly sought after employer?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying. I honestly would have stated it explicitly in the first place, but I made the incorrect assumption that it was not controversial to claim that this phenomenon exists at least for some companies and that it can be described as a form of marketing.
> Anything Paul Graham posts gets upvoted here instantly, because it's Paul Graham who posted it. For Jane Street there's the same halo effect, because many believe Jane Street's work is impressive. Is it really easier to believe the idea of botting to get an even longer list of candidates to interview, than it is to believe people just like to hear what this company has to say?
> I don't ever see anyone saying Paul Graham is botting posts about his "essays"
If we were discussing this on a website originally created by Jane Street, I would find this a more compelling counterargument. That said, I also don't bother trying to discuss his writing much because I mostly find it insufferable. I find the motives of Jane Street to be more interesting precisely because my opinion on them is more malleable.
Sure. What I said is a real world fact is the base salary, which can be verified by any of their job postings, e.g. www.janestreet.com/join-jane-street/position/4274288002, where it says "Base salary is $300,000. Base salary is only one part of Jane Street total compensation, which includes an annual discretionary bonus".
The claim that has less direct sources is how much the TC ends up being. The figure I said is the one I've heard multiple times over, sometimes by JS employees themselves, so I assume it to be true
> If we were discussing this on a website originally created by Jane Street, I would find this a more compelling counterargument.
That's fair, but I used Graham just as an example of source that always gets upvotes here. Uncle Bob hasn't posted anything in a while, but if he did, it'd certainly trend here, so that might be a better example
> I find the motives of Jane Street to be more interesting precisely because my opinion on them is more malleable.
Yes, that's fair. I don't think it's impossible that JS would bot/astroturf like you're implying, I just don't think it's the case. By Occam's razor I find it's more likely that people do care for what they have to say, similar to P. Graham, Uncle Bob, or any sort of blogpost from Anthropic/OpenAI, etc. It's quite possible that they got to this stage due to intentional marketing, though, so I'll give you that
ok thanks for this slop then. Dont see why this stupid article is on frontpage.
They seem to belive in 'organic' marketing like doing a fake podcasts on dwarkesh. So maybe they have some bots upvoting their name.
It's a really interesting time to work in this field. People who are paying attention to workflows are using a range of tools, and constantly refining their own workflow. For example a whole team might use Claude, but one person collects data about their own usage on an ongoing basis and develops more advanced workflows than everyone else on the team. Their focus isn't just about working faster, but about doing better work.
I don't think the post is vague; I think we're at a time where you need flexibility in your interview process to find candidates who are doing the best work these days.
My optimism comes from AI's ability to solve genuinely hard mathematical problems this year. September and October could go down as two of the most remarkable months in the history of AI If, and only if, those proofs are correct and independently verified by real experts. Even if the proofs have been formally verified in Lean, expert scrutiny still matters.
ie. Not actually interviewing software engineers.
In some ways, although I detest AI, it has clarified the sort of people and organizations I want to associate with. Any latent characteristics that I abhor have been made obvious with the existence of AI and of course, I would want nothing to do with Jane Street.