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> sexual harassment in the workplace

I had only heard about a consensual relationship.

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Which most company policies allow in some form. Peer-to-peer is straight forward. Supervisor-subordinate (relevant here) is less tolerated. You just have to disclose it and maybe sign a "love contract."

Parent is oblivious to this and has already made up their mind that these policies don't exist

> The fact the he did it, and that she got promoted seals his fate as a predator in my mind.

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I'm very aware that these policies exist, and I'm certain the CEO of Nvidia was also aware. That he decided to circumvent them says all you need to know, really. Even if it's consensual, what happens when she decides she wants to move on from the relationship? What about her peers that didn't receive promotions while she did? This is why these laws exist.
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Your hypothetical makes zero sense as your questions have simple yes/no answers.

> Even if it's consensual, what happens when she decides she wants to move on from the relationship?

Then they're no longer in a relationship and still have to follow HR/company policies.

>What about her peers that didn't receive promotions while she did?

Did they follow the company policy (e.g., hiring committee recusal) or not for the promotions?

>This is why these laws exist.

Did the company policies follow employment regulations when setting and enforcing their policy?

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The implication here is that they didn't follow company policy or else this wouldn't be an issue. HR would have said, "Yes we're aware of the relationship, all of our policies have been properly followed in relation to it." The fact that we're not hearing that means the answers to all these questions don't have pretty answers.
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Well, I guess they should fire her, then.
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To be honest, even with those policies, a supervisor-subordinate relationship can be problematic. There is an undeniable power dynamic at play, so even when it looks consensual it's hard to be sure. I'm not saying it wasn't consensual in this case, but when person A can impact the future of person B, person B might feel coerced to "consent".

Anyway, not sure if that's the case here but it's hard to rule out entirely.

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I think we can all read between the lines that no such thing existed in this case because he was married.
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Interestingly, no!

These policies are intentionally narrowed to workplace conflicts of interest. HR doesn't want to manage morality clauses or stuff outside the workplace.

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If you want to have a consensual relationship with someone you need to guarantee they don't work for you somehow first, really.
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I think the real world is not that black and white, really... There is nuance in those interactions as well.
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No such thing as consensual when saying no to the boss could result in getting fired.
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If you go that route you can extrapolate to some absurd degree. Basically any relationship with a power imbalance becomes sexual harassment.
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Yes, you can extrapolate, and our society does. This is why ministers aren't supposed to have relationships with their clergy, therapists are not supposed to have relationships with their clients, lawyers, doctors, etc. The list goes on and on.
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Can become, yes. Depends a bit on what exactly the nature of the power imbalance is. Which is why there are usually strict rules about relationships with your reports and how to resolve the situation. Like reporting it to HR so the work positions can be shifted in a way to move positions so that there is no longer a reporting relationship between the two.
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Congrats you just figured out divorce laws and alimony from first principles.
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Wow you are mere inches from understanding the concept of sexual harassment. Keep going!
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You mean infantilising adults and denying their agency to feel better about yourself.

Obviously it depends from case to case and there are certain lines that shouldn’t be crossed but otherwise consenting adults should be free to make their own decisions.

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So is Huang only allowed to have sex with Lisa Su or something? But even then Nvidia dwarfs AMD in power.
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There is always Elon I guess…
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100% of his relationships have been with nvidia subordinates and business partners. You realize there are more women on the planet right?
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> 100% of his relationships

*that we know of

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Got it, that's why I only date girls who meet the following criteria:

* My age, +/- 2 years.

* Comparable emotional and intellectual development.

* Same level of education.

* Earn within 10% of what I earn.

* Total net worth within 10% of mine.

* Muscular, so we're of comparable strength.

* Exact same cultural and ethnic background.

* No chronic diseases or disabilities, since I don't have any and that would be an unfair advantage.

* Read Hacker News just as pathologically frequently, so we both know when to short NVIDIA at approximately the same time.

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How do you reconcile "love contracts" [0]?

[0] https://www.woodsrogers.com/insights/publications/this-valen...

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I've never worked at any company that used them or heard about them. Instead we take yearly training saying that even flirting with the idea is a cause for immediate termination.

Do you have stats on how common these are? Is it more popular in some non US country maybe?

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Your companies had zero tolerance for consensual relationships at the office? Not even married couples? Possible, but the exception because that really constrains your talent base.

Good idea about stats. Please share what you find.

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Do you suppose Jensen had a love contract with his subordinate, when the breaking of the news of their extramarital relationship led to a 20% drop in stock and the removal of Jensen as CEO?
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You're asking a leading question with flawed premises and assumptions.

1. The subordinate story broke yesterday. The stock dropped 12% (not 20) and recovered half.

2. But for the spy/export control subversion, do you think a CEO would be stepping down for banging a co-worker? LOL...

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Considering he was fired it's the other way around. This at most only applies to very small companies or to people at the very bottom on the totem pole.
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How do you know the boss initiated?
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Yeah. It’s not like being an ultra chad billionaire with great biceps and confident personality is NOT attractive to women. Maybe her husband wasn’t doing it for her (legit feel bad for that man, whoever he is, today).
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Everyone loves to jump to this conclusion when I think that should require some heavy evidence.

You could just as easily say she did sexual favors to get a leg-up over more qualified peers and get/maintain her position.

If anything, the fact he got fired seems to imply she has all the power in their relationship being outed. I haven't seen anyone calling for her head.

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> could result in getting fired

When did they discover the quid-pro-quo aspect of this particular relationship? The news is moving so fast that I must have missed that part.

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If there is an asymmetry in power, hardly consensual.
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This whole thing is making me question whether I should continue reading HN. It's not just this story either, it seems a sub-section of the HN community has taken a hard-right swing in the last couple years.

People in these threads are pretending that 75% of the story doesn't exist and it's just about an affair... insane.

EDIT: Is this just X infecting HN? I don't go on X so I don't know what it's like.

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People here are so weird now about AI. Bizarrely sensitive to even the slightest criticism of AI or the associated companies. I don’t know if it’s bots or what, but it’s legitimately scary.
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Both, but you don't need to worry. Nvidia will release a new LLM model in a few days time and everyone will all be happy again.

This one tip gets you off the hook of any company slander; just release a LLM model.

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Not sure about the sexual harassment angle you're pushing... it's about trust isn't it? If you have consensual affairs as a CEO, you are still liable to be fired if it becomes public, that's my opinion anyway.
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When the CEO starts hitting on you the word "consensual" doesn't really fit anymore.
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Maybe she hit on him. He was not hiding being open to affairs so she may have shot her shot. We just don’t know.
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It doesn't matter, he was in a position of extreme power imbalance where he could show her both favoritism or fire her depending on how things went. It's improper and inappropriate at best, and illegal at worst.
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Yeah you don’t want to be hit by your CEO. But that doesn’t immediately mean the specific case with Huang and his subordinate was a harassment.

What is known now is described a conflict of interest (which is bad already for a CEO). Whether it was a harassment - investigation should show.

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In any scenario it’s not appropriate. Among peers, everyone knows about the “special relationship” and it directly attacks any perception of fairness and enables others to justify similar or worse behavior in the org.
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A good point and the line of thinking you're describing implies that power should override anything else. Rather than rules that apply to everyone, what level of power within a company should no longer be subject to firing for engaging in a power-abuse sexual relationship?

Misbehavior without consequences seems to have become more noticeable in politics within the past ten years, with mainstream news outlets reporting on insider trading and potential bribes for favors. This ethos of power over accountability seems to be having a trickle down effect on general sentiment.

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Do we know that he offered? It is possible that she went after him. These things aren't always so cut and dry.
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Any company that wants to pass one of the many audits I'm sure Nvidia is subject to has policies around this. They would both know that not only do all employees need to disclose such relationships but that such a relationship is not appropriate if one is above the other on the org chart. Since the CEO is above everyone, that pretty much means if he wanted a relationship with an employee they would need to resign first.
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What are you on about? She wasnt an employee of nvidia, but a client of sorts. No, this is not what you want it to be about.
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> The number of people here who don’t take sexual harassment in the workplace by the CEO of a world-leading company to be a serious, fireable offense—and the fact that so many of you claim to care about things like women’s rights and social justice—is mind-boggling to me.

It's mindboggling that you describe an apparently completely consensual affair as "sexual harassment". That's absurd.

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Maybe you should expand your understanding of the term, then. It's a well-known thing, especially when it comes to extreme power imbalances.
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The term already has a well-established meaning; we shouldn't change our understanding of it. If you mean something else then use different terminology.

Also, I don't think there was an "extreme power imbalance". If anything, she had far more power over him than the other way around, since he had much more to lose and she could blackmail him with making the affair public or other allegations.

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I am referring to the meaning established in the law. Many things fall under the legal umbrella of sexual harassment. If you want to describe it as something else maybe you should be the one looking for a new term to coin.
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No. The law does not describe a consensual relationship with a subordinate as "sexual harassment".
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Obviously the situation isn't that simple, and neither is the law. If you really want to have a relationship with a subordinate there are legitimate ways to make that happen. He chose to circumvent those (ostensibly repeatedly, and while paying off people who found out about it), and the set of reasonable explanations that don't involve some form of harassment is vanishingly small.
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It's not just not "vanishingly small", there is zero indication that any sexual harassment was involved.
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Let's dispense with the theatrics. Having a relationship with someone in your chain is not even close to sexual harassment. Yes, it can lead to it but generally it doesn't. It's not at all illegal either.

When I entered the workforce not so long ago most companies didn't even have policies against it. My university didn't make a policy about it until 2012. I know a very happily married couple who got married this way (a little earlier - perhaps around 2006 or 2007). I don't think they'd be happy if I referred to their behavior as "sexual harrasment".

I think it's a good policy and it's fair they enforce it, but equating it to sexual harassment is nonsense.

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They may not think about it that way, but if one of that couple got a promotion from the other then every other person on the team pretty much has grounds for a law suit. There are reasons these rules exist, and the CEO of a high profile company has no excuse not to know them all.
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She was a direct report of the CEO. There are no promotions possible. She was max level already.
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But was she a direct report when the affair started?
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> but if one of that couple got a promotion from the other then every other person on the team pretty much has grounds for a law suit.

Extremely rare (winning such a lawsuit). Prior to these kinds of rules becoming the norm, how often did anyone win such a lawsuit? It's a rounding error close to 0.

There are plenty of publicized cases where one party openly stated she got promotions because of her affair with a senior. No lawsuits were even filed in the ones I know.

I'm in favor of such rules precisely because it's hard to win such a suit.

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You can't prevent people from having relationships. It's not realistic. My company has specific rules about this. Typically, "problematic" relationships need to be disclosed to HR and leadership, but they're not forbidden per se.
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I mean I said in 2016 Hillary basically behaved this way with Bill in regards to others (notably monica lewinsky) and against basically anyone else (i.e. say whole democrat party field) except Trump that should have been a disqualifying thing (and worse, if the republicans put up a decent person, I suspect Hillary would have won!)

At the end of the day, I wouldn't bash everyone here too strongly when everyone who lined up early behind Hillary basically acted in the same way. (And yes, even though Bill did the act, Hillary lined up easily to defend him, much like the people you mention here)

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The number of people here who don't think women can consent to sexual relationships is thankfully not quite as high.
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Even if it were about consent (and it's not), it's difficult to show that a relationship with such a power imbalance is consensual. If it were consensual it should have been disclosed. And as a CEO he has a greater responsibility to follow these kinds of rules. He knows it, and he did it anyway, and then he got caught doing it. There's really no other action to take besides removing him.
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Maybe it's a generational thing? The younger generations seem to have some sort of anxiety with respect to consent and power dynamics, where even something as trivial as a modest age difference is viewed with suspicion. The movie Obsession can be seen as that anxiety translated into the horror genre.

To be fair though, a CEO having an affair with a subordinate should be seen with at least some suspicion...

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IDK, if you look at the messaging around Clancy where women are completely subordinate to hormones to the point it excuses chasing down three children and systematically murdering them, or the Cornell 7 case where a woman can willfully engage in sex with multiple men and then only decide it was rape retroactively after explicitly negotiating with the men what was ok during and after with text messages where she defended her own actions but then when rumors started she decided she didn’t actually give consent…

The people saying you can’t trust women… are mostly coming from women.

Wild time if you are dating! Yes could mean No if later she decides she didn’t like something about it.

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> But we live in an age where the only truth people believe is the one that makes them feel a certain way

The irony is so sweet here.

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money before principles. Not to be crass but this is the ycombinator forum, not bluesky. do not expect principles before money, this is the absolute opposite of trying to preach to the choir.
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Who do you work for? Curious why you're pushing an unproven narrative? In America, we are innocent until proven guilty. Let's not forget that :)
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Who do you work for? Curious whether they have annual sexual harassment training or not. I'm not pushing a narrative. Based on the facts that are public alone this is pretty cut and dry sexual harassment. You may not like the connotation of those words, but they contain a pretty broad set of improprieties.
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Cornell 7 would like a word. That’s just the latest. The facts of that case so strongly outweigh the narrative of “poor drunk unconscious college girl rapped by men for hours” that it’s comical that somehow innocent until proven guilty is now “misogynist rape culture” or something.
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wait who said hn supported social justice and women's rights generally? that's not really been my impression wherever it comes up
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The sex is a nothing burger. He would have been fine if they were for instance, latin American and not Chinese.
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This is blatant racism. It has nothing to do with race.
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I'm... not shocked. Politically, HN skews pretty heavily right. Some of them will claim otherwise, putting rainbow flags in bios and such, but here is where the rubber hits the road. I also believe that the affair with the subordinate was the big problem. He can paint himself a victim of a Chinse spy.

Consider the case of Regina Santos-Aviles [1]. She committed suicide by setting herself on fire and had revealed that she'd been having an affair with her boss.

The power dynamics here are insane. Huang was the CEO and a billionaire. The legal liability that NVidia has or could have because of this is huge, particularly if they did nothing. Now there are big questions about who knew what when.

The reporting says somebody say them in a San Jose hotel and was basically hushed with an NDA, and probably a big payment (I'm guessing; I don't know). Was that from NVidia or Huang personally? What NVidia staff, if any, authorized that?

If the board wants to really clean house they should authorize a thorough external investigation of that and any other possible affairs.

[1]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tony-gonzales-aide-affair-texts...

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> Politically, HN skews pretty heavily right.

I've found HN to be pretty hostile to DOGE (whereas conversation is usually respectful even for fringe viewpoints; something special happened here).

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DOGE was less popular than most of the admins stuff, and more scandalous at various levels (the stuff they did cut was fairly popular, they didn't manage to cut the stuff people might have really seen as wasteful, they went about accessing data in strange ways, some of the employees were quite young and looked unqualified).

I don't think you can assume much just by knowing somebody disliked them.

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That's totally fair, nobody is happy with DOGE at this point and a lot of people were skeptical and nervous as it was happening. I just don't recall anyone popping in to say "damn it, they're doing it wrong!".
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lol, do you think it is a coincidence that going after DC’s money was met with more media attention than other things? I don’t.
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The things they got the most attention for like USAID weren't really core dc money. if anything I think they failed to really touch federal programs much in the end, but they did wildly swing at other stuff (like infamously just word searching to cancel research grants etc).
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One may interpret this as the Overton window having shifted quite a bit over the last several years. As in "HN skews pretty heavily right" can be correct *and* it can also be true that the wackadoo faction of the right has dominated the discourse for a while.

To spin it another way: if we ignore the rise of the faux-libertarian (you know, the more typical brand now, libertarian but all for a strong military and christian nationalism), I'd argue that the typical HN skews more old school small-l libertarian on the right wing spectrum. That's quite a bit different from the MAGA, christian nationalist, style of right wing politics that has been in vogue lately.

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But DOGE (as conceived) is the wet dream of a libertarian from any era. If anything it's a bone that Trump threw to libertarians. It's not especially MAGA imho.
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On paper yes, but anyone with half a brain saw that the opposite was true in real life. They went in, made things worse, didn't save any money, and absconded with a lot of private data. My recollection from that time period was the tenor here shifted rapidly from generally positive to generally negative.
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> Politically, HN skews pretty heavily right

If you truly believe this, you're living in a bubble. Economically it might be pro free markets, but socially it's heavily "progressive" -- see any discussions about Omarchy, LGBTQ, Elon, or Trump.

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Every time Musk comes up there are a bunch of people excusing his behavior just like what is happening with Huang.
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Leftism begins with anti-capitalism. This is so far beyond the American (or even European) Overton window. The American political mainstream is a choice between center-right and far-right.

Politics is about economics. All of the so-called "culture war" issues (eg LGBT rights, bodily autonomy, etc) don't make you left wing if you are still an avowed capitalist. The success of the Republican Party hinges on the success they've had in propagandizing culture war issues to avoid talking about economics. And the establishment Democrat Party is complicit because they have the exact same paymasters.

On this issue you see a ton of people in the comments saying "yeah but Jensen made so much money" as a reason why he shouldn't suffer the consequences. If making money has primacy in your decision making well... you're right wing, definitionally.

As other commenters have noted, every time Elon comes up there are a ton of HN defenders, despite him being a complete fascist (in technical terms, not a pejorative) and doing the Nazi salute on national TV (twice).

> Economically it might be pro free markets, ...

Well, first there's no such thing as "free markets". Second, you're basically saying "capitalism". As I said, right wing.

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I'm socially progressive but economically conservative. That's why, whenever there's a tough situation where compromise is needed, I always compromise on the side of "let the free market run amok".
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I’m entertained by how far left one must be to think HN “leans pretty heavily right”. Even the most die-hard socialist should be aware enough to find that funny.

I think media, social and traditional, has really done a number on people’s perspectives. I’m not sure why ideology replaces self-awareness.

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Die-hard socialists often consider "liberals" to be soft-core right wingers. I'm not sure there's an objective center, it's all a matter of perspective.
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> and a billionaire

That means he can’t have any affairs with anyone who isn’t a billionaire without it turning into sexual harassment due to the imbalance in power?

> basically hushed with an NDA, and probably a big payment

So depending on how big the payment the alleged victim might be pretty happy with the outcome?

I mean if the board believes that the actions of the CEO resulted in financial damage to the company it’s up to them to investigate and deal with it. I just don’t get the whole morality police angle as long as the affair was between consenting rational adults.

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If a billionaire can't have consensual sex with women what is the point of it all?

"Subordinate", get a grip!

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I think the angle is more so on lack of equal accountability.

Musk has done worse, yet nothing has really happened to him.

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I agree there should be equal accountability. The response to that shouldn't be letting everyone do whatever the hell they want, though, in my opinion.
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That chick could very well be an American spy who did everything she could to get him into bed, you have no idea what the truth is.
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