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New chips from Realtek burn < 2W for the chip and < 3-4W for the board: https://www.servethehome.com/cheap-10gbe-realtek-rtl8127-nic...
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4W is TDP for some of Pi-style mini computers. Lots of them have fans.
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Pi 4 and 5 both idle around 3W. But a Pi 5 can pull up to 16W with a USB peripheral, full CPU load, and decoding 4k video. The Pi 4 / 5 will run OKish without a heatsink at idle wattages, but thermal throttle quickly if you attempt to do something intensive.

These realtek 10gbe chips are more in the range of the Pi Zero class machines (0.5W idle, 2W loaded) which don't often come with heatsinks though they might benefit from them. If it has a good thermal connection to a good thick ground plane on the PCB, that's worth almost as much as a passive heatsink on the top of the chip.

usb-c < card edge < motherboard integrated in terms of how much heat can be transfered through the connection. Where the motherboard would have the largest ground plane to soak up heat from such an IC and dissipate it passively. The usb-c module is worst case by being a small enclosed box with very little thermal connection through the plastic insulating housing. An aluminum enclosure might dissipate enough heat passively to make it pleasant to use.

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> The Pi 4 / 5 will run OKish without a heatsink at idle wattages, but thermal throttle quickly if you attempt to do something intensive.

Even with a heatsink and fan, I had to upgrade to a higher quality set to keep Jellyfin from thermal throttling a Pi5 while transcoding 4K video.

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4k video transcoding is anything but an idle load.
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Especially on the Pi 5, which has no hardware encoder to save on power consumption for that task. It's entirely in the CPU.

(Technically the Pi 4's hw encoder doesn't go up to 4K either, though, so I guess moot point).

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Yes, that is “something intensive”, as was said in the few words of the sentence I quoted that came after the words “idle load”.
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Raspberry Pi 4 doesn't need a fan. People just like to put them on because because micromanaging CPU temperature is part of the hobby for some. Yes it might throttle its CPU speed when going full tilt for some time, but lets be real how many workloads require poor Raspberry Pi to be loaded 100% for prolonged periods of time?
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If it throttles CPU it means by definition means that a fan helps. Also constant heat increases failure rate.
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Cycles of heating and cooling are what increases failure rates. The thermal expansion and contraction causes issues.
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That's one way to put it.

Another way is that my great grandchildren won't care about inheriting my collection of hobbyist SBCs, and therefore nor should I.

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Permanent heat doesn't?
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From what I've gathered, heat absolutely does[1] affect[2] it[3]:

Subsequently, in 1967, Black of Motorola experimentally derived a median time to failure (MTTF, i.e., operational lifetime) model for EM in Al interconnects, showing that the time to failure due to EM is inversely proportional to both the current density and the absolute temperature of the interconnect.

[1]: https://infinitalab.com/blog/ic-failure-analysis-defect-type...

[2]: https://resources.system-analysis.cadence.com/blog/msa2020-b...

[3]: https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9292/14/15/3151#sec3-electronics-1...

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Thermal cycles, heat, current, all contribute to degradations and failures. It just so happens that cycling is the worst and everyone knows "it's the power cycles that kills computers". Doesn't mean at all that electronics can't be damaged countless other ways.
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Running plex/jellyfin :)
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Does it go beyond 30 Metres?
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Certified Cat6 cable gets you 10GbE up to 55m (and even 5e is workable), while Cat 6A goes to 100m.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair#Var...

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...and yet they're still covered by a huge heatsink.
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To add perspective, an old-school 7805 voltage regulator dissipating just 1 watt is already impossibly hot to hold with bare hand (as me how I know). So 3-4 watts on a small module will make it noticeably hot.
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They aren't huge at all, the new RTL cards are tiny. I wish 2-port versions were available for a home server upgrade.
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I was doing a comparison of 10G ethernet NICs just yesterday and ChatGPT was insistent that they are scorching regardless of actual throughput. Unless you manually downshift and upshift the communication rate.

I'm having second thoughts about having one of those dongles on my desk all day for the same reason wireless charging seems wasteful.

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Yeah, 10Gb ethernet runs hot. I just rewired the house with 10Gb (we have 8Gb FTTP) and it's kind of upsetting how hot my Thunderbolt dock gets.
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I looked in to it and it seemed like 10gbit was much better over fiber. Ended up deciding that 2.5gbit is plenty. The 2.5 gear is significantly cheaper and runs cool.
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Yeah, I use DAC for the desktop and fibre between floors. It's just the Mac's desktop that uses RJ45 copper.
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> I looked in to it and it seemed like 10gbit was much better over fiber.

Yes, except that most devices use Ethernet. So, at the end of the day, you still need Ethernet cables unless you want to deal with an additional switch or converter in every room.

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Fiber/10Gbase-*R is Ethernet too. Please say copper/RJ45/base-T when you mean copper/RJ45/base-T.
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If you want to ackshually, both fiber and copper are empty pipes that can carry any layer 2 protocol, and are not inherently Ethernet. They only become Ethernet cables when they're connected to terminals that pass that protocol through them.

Unless we're defining some networking standard, "Ethernet cable" is a perfectly acceptable term. Everyone will understand what is meant. The added specificity you're asking for doesn't improve the quality of communication.

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That's why I added base-*R/base-T.

And particularly for 10GE the heat and power problems are due to the copper transceiver DSPs.

And people nerdy enough to run 10GE at home might well run fibre.

So, no, the specifity is needed and useful.

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>That's why I added base-*R/base-T.

You're still talking about a cable. The cable may be compatible with those standards, but you can put anything through it. It's just a physical connection.

>And people nerdy enough to run 10GE at home might well run fibre. So, no, the specifity is needed and useful.

No, because if you say "which do you want? Ethernet or fiber?" no one will look at you like if you asked if they want salt or beef. It's technically incorrect, but everyone will understand what is being asked.

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> You're still talking about a cable. The cable may be compatible with those standards, but you can put anything through it. It's just a physical connection.

If you want to ackshually, the post I was replying to was talking about what "devices use" and cables required for that, so it's in fact about what standards these devices support.

Apart from that, again, in the context of 10GE you can by no means assume copper when talking about an Ethernet port; SFP+ slots are quite common. Your assertion that "everyone will understand" is also something I plainly know to be untrue in my bubble. It may be true in the context of slower speeds, but for ≥10GE the general performance characteristics of twisted-pair copper transceivers are so bad as to make it into the crossover point from copper cabling into DAC cables and fibre.

And, honestly, the assumption that "Ethernet = copper cabling" is harmful for 10GE. Those transceivers are hot garbage in the literal sense, they run hot enough to warrant usage limitations on switches due to cooling/overheating limits, and they tend to be quite picky about cable quality on establishing links.

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>the post I was replying to was talking about what "devices use" and cables required for that

Yes, that person said "most devices use Ethernet", to which you correctly pointed out they meant to say RJ45. However, in the process of making that correction you made an unrelated error yourself in saying that fiber is Ethernet too.

>you can by no means assume copper when talking about an Ethernet port

You can, if by "Ethernet" you mean an RJ45 jack and its cable, which is a fairly common usage of the word. It doesn't matter that it's technically incorrect. The default idea of physical protocol that the word "Ethernet" invokes in most people is that of twisted pair copper cabling. If you take a random person and put in front of them a fiber optic cable carrying Ethernet and a copper cable carrying serial signals and tell them "would you mind unplugging the Ethernet cable?" they'll disconnect the copper cable.

>Your assertion that "everyone will understand" is also something I plainly know to be untrue in my bubble.

Oh, so you know several people who when presented with the dichotomy of Ethernet or fiber (because that's what the comment you replied to was about, as it put Ethernet in contrast with fiber), they'll be completely dumbfounded about what is meant, as if hearing gobbledygook?

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> Oh, so you know several people who when presented with the dichotomy of Ethernet or fiber (because that's what the comment you replied to was about, as it put Ethernet in contrast with fiber), they'll be completely dumbfounded about what is meant, as if hearing gobbledygook?

Yes.

And I've used up the time I'm willing to sink into this subthread, see you around.

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Excuse me, I believe you mean GNU/copper/RJ45/base-T
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My copper/RJ45/base-T is running musl libc + busybox!
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Thank you.
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Indeed, that's largely why I decided 10gbit at home isn't really worth it. The current 10gbit ethernet stuff is expensive and power hungry, the enterprise stuff is hard to use on consumer gear. And the only real use case is super fast access to a nas.
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I got it solely because our ISP bumped our home fiber to 10Gb and it would’ve hurt my soul for the router to be slower than that. And hey, if you’ve already got a router with 10Gb ports available and ready to go…
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> every room

I disagree with that for two reasons. First, my central switch is probably capable of both copper and fiber. Second, how many wired devices do you have spread around your house? Let's say I have an above average number of devices: a router, a NAS, two access points, and three desktops. Router, NAS, and one access point can all be adjacent to the switch and avoid any conversion hassle. The desktops are using fiber so no conversion hassle there. That leaves one copper cable or converter needed for the other access point.

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I guess I have rather overestimated what a normal amount of wired devices is based on my own sample size. That or the opposite is happening with you.

My house has a POE doorbell, several POE cameras, 2 TVs that each get a connection to their attached android TV boxes, Wife's office gets a pair of connections, ditto with mine, then you've got the APs for the wireless bits + a few servers in the rack with the networking equipment.

Mind you I know I am on the high side, but I use that as the reference point. I'd figure a normal house would have 4-5 wired connections to my 20ish.

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In that situation I'd basically consider the doorbell and cameras as a separate install.

That mainly leaves the TVs, which I would just throw on the wireless but for wiring I'd still say you run it to your central switching spot that handles both copper and fiber.

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If you have a fixed computer or NAS, stop making excuses and install a 10G fiber card in it.

If you have a laptop or TV it probably doesn't need 10G.

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> If you have a fixed computer or NAS, stop making excuses and install a 10G fiber card in it.

It's hard to justify when Ethernet is catching up. Most new motherboards have a 2.5G port. High-end motherboards have 10G Ethernet ports. SFP cards take space, are ugly, and need directed airflow to stay cool. They are not worth it for a 4x increase in bandwidth at best.

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Fibre requires conduit with specific radius bends, making it difficult to route through a house.
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Having cabled my apartment with Cat 6 definitely made me prefer fiber, it would have been a breeze instead of pulling thick cables from my office to other rooms. Cat 6 also shouldn’t be bent or you risk it going out of spec, and modern fiber nowadays have bend radius comparable to (or even smaller than) Cat 6.

I see how sloppy some FTTH installs are and they all work fine, and this is for light that travels for long distances.

The only advantage copper has is PoE.

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You'd be amazed what exists on the market these days. For example, the pre-terminated InvisiLight fiber cabling is 0.6mm in diameter and has a 2.5mm bend radius. I've personally installed this cabling while making many 90 degree (and sharper in some cases) bends without any issues. That makes it easy to hide and trivial to fit right through doorways and other tight spaces too.
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I redid everything that matters in my house/homelab with DAC cables for exactly that reason. Order of magnitude difference in watts and heat
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Hopefully short-run 10GIGE-T might get cooler with better DSP, but for long runs I think it will remain fibre.
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Which dock (brand/model) did you get?
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The CalDigit TS5+. It's really nice!
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Yeah, fantastic brand. I still have the old TS3, it just won’t die.
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> it's kind of upsetting how hot my Thunderbolt dock gets.

I have seen the same with just usb-c multi-port dongles for macbooks (the ones they give you at work along with the macbooks).

in fairness to the docs/dongles though, they have an incredible amount of features that would have been science-fiction twenty years ago.

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So the entire Framework card's casing should have been copper?
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If the whole thing were metal, the outer casing would transfer heat to skin too quickly, probably, for safety.
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