Which is what C++ enthusiasts have done to C enthusiasts and C enthusiasts have done to assembly enthusiasts.
I suspect that Rust will start taking over as a dominant LLM output language.
I also suspect that in short order we'll have entirely new languages that are engineered to be ideal languages for LLMs to generate. Perhaps even safer than Rust.
The models are shockingly good at writing Rust. You don't even need to have familiarity with Rust to start using it now. You'll learn the language as you interact with the LLMs.
Decades before Rust and long before the simplified language that was C, there were safe programming languages, where all invalid operations, numeric overflows or out-of-bounds accesses generated exceptions and where use-after-free was impossible, because either garbage collectors or reference counts were used.
Rust is much safer than C compiled with its bad default compilation options, but it did not bring much in comparison with other languages.
Even in C++, with appropriate rules, restrictions and discipline you can write programs that are guaranteed to be at least as safe as any Rust program, but unfortunately very few use C++ in this way, i.e. by strictly avoiding the features that are obsolete or unsafe.
And no, C++ just doesn't make the same things easy or clean.
And no, "discipline and appropriate rules" were never enough.
The biggest innovation of Rust is bringing some of the good ideas from functional programming to low level programming. I'd also say that partially exposing data flow analysis to a proframmer is new.
Rust package management is quite good, and also not by any means an invention.
I am still not a fan of all the ugly macro programming systems and verbose syntax in the language.
The language I really want is somewhere inbetween those two languages.
The broader ML-like type system in Rust is not novel, but the integration of the borrow checker -- and its move semantics more broadly -- with it in its form honestly is an innovation. And one I'd have a hard time living without at this point.
If by discipline, you mean running something akin to the borrow checker in your head, that's essentially tautologically true. The issue with that is that it's mentally draining and/or you will still make mistakes sometimes.
For maximum safety, beyond what Rust offers by default, in C++ it is easy to replace the built-in integer types with custom integer types, which check for overflows and allow only the correct type conversions. It is also easy to define distinct types for various kinds of physical quantities, for increased safety.
You do not need to run anything in your head. With appropriate type definitions, a C++ compiler will do anything that is required.
The problem is that because of the requirement for backwards compatibility, C++ is a huge junk collection. I think that more than half of C++ consists of obsolete features, which should never be used in new programs, and this is a serious difficulty for newbies. There are various C++ style guides, but in my opinion even most of those are not very inspired.
Despite of its defects, C++ still has the advantage of extreme customizability. It is easy to write programs that appear to be written in a language that has no resemblance with C++ (inclusively by having different keywords and what appears to be a different syntax), but nonetheless they are valid C++ programs.
Such a customized C++ variant can mimic any safer language.
The work to try to address this for C++ 29, half-finished and untried as it is - is extremely restrictive, you'd likely hate it, and that's just to solve this, the relatively easy problem.
Thing is, Rust wasn't content just to solve that easy problem. (Safe) Rust also doesn't have data races. The C++ standard doesn't say very much about data races, can't help you ensure they don't happen - it just explains that if they do that's Undefined Behaviour, game over.
This completely misses the point.
That is really not very different of rules enforced by the Rust compiler.
For someone who does a fresh start, using a Rust compiler may ensure safer programs out of the box, but that does not mean that the same results cannot be achieved by alternative means when using other languages, when the use of those languages makes sense for other reasons, and it is worthwhile to invest resources in making appropriate libraries and tooling.
In general, I recommend against the use of C++ in new projects, but I see much too often claims about things that are supposedly difficult or impossible to do in C++, which are just false.
I doubt it. I think most people will become more entrenched in their favored ecosystem.
> I also suspect that in short order we'll have entirely new languages that are engineered to be ideal languages for LLMs to generate.
This is already happening. A couple months ago I came across this language that is engineered for AI and human consumption https://www.moonbitlang.com/
A waste.
This code will be high-defect and slow.
All of your LLM outputs should be Rust.
Of all the complaints about rust, this strikes me as one of weirdest. How much code do you actually write for architectures outside the Tier 3 support list?
However I did write ADA and C for those.
Ok, but recently? I too wrote code for obscure platforms once upon a time, but not in, say, the last 15 years.
Now that PCs, game consoles, and mobile devices are basically all either amd64 or ARM, there's just not such a long tail of weird platforms to develop for.
(the embedded world I will grant you, still lots of bespoke toolchains running around in that space)
We get it. You like Rust. It's not a panacea.
Experienced Go devs that stay inside the ecosystem try to write their libraries as "pure go" libraries with zero dependencies other than the upstream core libraries (or golang.org/x if needbe), which results in a very low maintenance ecosystem. This combined with the strong toolchain makes it joyful to work with.
I still don't agree with a lot of design choices of the language, but I realize that I can be more efficient if I am setting aside my opinion.
And that's exactly the thing that somehow never happened in the Rust ecosystem. I always joke that the Rust ecosystem has more OpenGL bindings than developers, because there's just so many low quality bindings or wrappers out there that the ecosystem in result got too noisy to maintain.
I don't want to write more (verbose) code. I want to write less.
I kind of already know that my comment goes to shit in terms of downvotes, but that's what I expect while writing this. How dare I criticized Rust as a language? How dare I, a fulltime noob, do this? Rust is better, always!
...the Rust ecosystem is just so effing toxic. I am glad that I left it. I just got tired of being angry at random online things all the time. Go is my happy place where my annoyances are reduced to Cgo, maps, and the unsafe package <3
Rust seems to attract a lot of horizontal programming. I have done mainly that so far and I LOVE Rust for it.
AIUI, horizontal programming is fully building out each abstraction before you start building on top of it, as opposed to vertical programming, which generally seeks to accomplish the task as directly and straightforwardly as possible, and only abstract if needed.
This leads to things like the proliferation of bindings, abstraction layers, frameworks etc. with little downstream users to show for it. And often little influence from experience using them. Sometimes very technically impressive but otherwise not always fleshed out to the point of being practically usable.
I am sure there's tons of toxicity all over the place too but I chalk it up to differing mindsets / patterns of development.
For example, std's linked list seems rarely useful for anything but scripting, and could've easily been a crate. I don't think it's egregious or anything, it's just a bit meh. I don't really use Rust for scripting though (I usually use zsh or TypeScript), so maybe it's super valuable in specific cases.
Please provide a link to this comment.
Someone asked an honest question and got reasonable responses that were informative. At no point did anyone chide the project for not using Rust.
> Rust might be a fine language but it has the most toxic evangelist culture, bar none.
Nah, people complaining about the supposed toxic community are noisier than the supposed toxic community.
Then again, your very username implies an indulgence in viewing technology through the lens of fandoms which is... weird
It was basically a complete derail to backdoor in a conversation about why they think everything should be in Rust.
OpenBSD still uses CVS, C and Make because that's what works for them. They will continue to keep using C, Make and CVS but that enables them to be productive with the contributors that they have. Moving things to other languages will not increase their productivity. That's the biggest thing that the largely-fanatical Rust evangelists completely fail to understand.
This is a wide ranging discussion board, not the OpenBSD forums. That shit is fair game even if you don’t like it.
(It’s annoying, sure - because dev tribalism is the most played out thing in this industry - but overall the topic can be an interesting discussion point)
I come to an OpenBSD post to talk about OpenBSD. Rust isn't even really tangentially related.