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I had a long ranting comment I deleted. I just don't like this trend of people presenting work in a way that makes you think some combo of 1) they discovered from scratch themselves 2) it's new 3) they didn't try to cite or acknowledge where they learned it/point to good sources 4) they don't really care about trying to teach something deeply, they want shiny stuff that makes them seem deep.

This post references specific parts/calculations, but you'd never know it was not news if you didn't know better.

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I don't think this is a fair critique.

The author of the post uses standard terminology like entropy coding and arithmetic coding, and cited a paper "in 2023, Google DeepMind released a paper arguing that language modeling and compression are two views of the same thing" which discusses it further.

This blog post is great. Well explained, and clearly took a lot of effort.

I don't interpret it as them claiming to have to discovered it independently.

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Citing 2023 makes it seem like this is newer than it is. Compression, prediction and intelligence have long been known to be deeply connected.
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You expect every blog post to find the earliest relevant paper to cite, just so one could look at the year (without reading said paper - which would have made clear that the connection isn’t recent) to assess novelty? I don’t think that’s reasonable.

It’s a blog post. If it was, say, a peer reviewed paper by Hinton or LeCunn that fails to cite Schmidhuber, that would be reasonable criticism in my opinion. (Spoiler: they fail to cite him)

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Why would blog posts not be subject to such criticism?

Either the author knew of prior work that argues the same thing and they ignored it, or they didn't know. And if one writes a 1000+ word article premised on this idea, wouldn't one be presumed to know at least in which century the idea originated from?

Arguably these kind of blog posts should be more subject to such criticisms, because the blog posts purport to "teach" the general public about a concept in an authoritative tone (or at least the author seems to pose as knowledgeable in the subject), while for academic papers, everyone who actually reads the paper knows where the ideas came from anyway and it's mainly an issue of attribution (and maybe about fairly distributing the citation count...)

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> Why would blog posts not be subject to such criticism?

You're asking why casual comments from amateurs made for fun on the internet shouldn't be held to the same standard as those made by funded career academic experts writing for other experts over months and meant as part of the permanent record of the field?

Personally, I think that's a bit like asking why a friend having you over for dinner isn't always an elegant 7-course meal with wine pairings. I guess you can expect that if you want, but to me it sounds like a child expecting to go to Disney every day: ignoring the economic realities of the situation is a recipe for eternal disappointment.

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I think you shouldn't criticize the single blog post in vacuum.

If the blog is a personal collection of "today I've learned" then different standards apply then "my blog is my research publishing platform".

Both are valid blogs. The fact that it ended on HN front page didn't mean it was targeted towards this audience

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> You expect every blog post to find the earliest relevant paper to cite

This should be expected out of everyone. If you don't respect the reader enough to do this, why should we read your posts?

I think papers should be retracted for not citing prior art, even if you weren't aware of it.

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If the blog were about calculus, and stated that an elegant proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus could be found in such and such undergraduate textbook, would you be upset that the citation wasn't to either Newton's or Leibniz' work?
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The two contributioms that come to mind are the Hutter cash prize for the best compressor of the English Wikipedia and the work on PPM compression-based text classification by the late Prof. Ian Witten's group at Waikato (NZ) [1,2]. The model that best compresses the input string was likely generated by the distribution from which the compression model was 'trained'

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27440093

[2] https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings-article/dcc/2000/0...

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That compression and prediction are deeply connected is obvious from simply considering how compression algorithms work.

Nothing about the concept of "intelligence" is nearly as well defined as the other two, nor as well agreed upon.

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"Understanding" is clearly linked to compression. Taking observations and coming up with a more compact representation that explains them, analogous to coming up with a compact set of axioms that generate facts, or a small Turing machine or short program that generates a list of strings.

Intelligence is a broader concept but definitely involves understanding how a system/envoronment works and making predictions about its unfolding, especially actionable ones that allow you to steer that state towards some goal states.

These are not new.

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The post says this is all part of gzip and LLMs, what are you saying? I’ve been using gzip my entire life. I read between the lines “this is common knowledge” throughout the piece. Throwing in some names and dates only makes this super clear story harder to read (and more like studying then the playful exploration this post was intended as).
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A short paragraph at the end on the origin of these ideas can be an easy way to dispel the misconception of potential beginner readers that the insights are novel.
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I'm of two minds here. The pro is that the "you could have invented this" walkthrough from first principles is more engaging than "and then so and so introduced this term in 1972 and the definition is such and such". This style is a reaction to that boring and dry teaching style and tries to push towards what eg Feynman pointed at in the Brazil critique.

The con is that you don't get to understand and see any of the history of the ideas or even the ballpark when it was discovered, you attribute it to the blog mentally and you don't know what is how new or old and can't reference it properly when talking to others.

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Disconnecting idea development from it's historic development is a disservice to the audience that may want to dig deeper.
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Have any examples of a blog post that meets your standard?
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If only there were some sort of way for a reader to dig deeper on a topic without a writer having to spoon-feed them the entire history of everything!

It's wild to me what people here expect out of something they got for free and that was offered as a gift.

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There's no reason a compelling walkthrough can't throw in historical citations, is there?
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Often the most straightforward way to walk through an idea while teaching it is not the same order that the ideas were developed, and might not even use the same set of ideas in building up to it, so it can be tricky to get both the best explanation of the idea and the historical context in at the same time without making things more confusing.
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I like to see ideas presented as the evolved. Each solution is developed as a perceived reaction to the shortcomings of the previous. This becomes a contrast and comparison as to why one idea is appropriate for a particular context.
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They're both useful lenses, the evolution just tends to be a bit longer and messier.
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Not by definition. That is one general perception. I'm sure they both have a place and we all have our own preferences.
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Exactly. The best science exposition combines both. See, The Mechanical Universe and Veritasium.
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What specific historical citations would you like to see in this post?

Perhaps you could contact the author with your suggestions?

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I'm speaking in general terms and I have not studied much on this subject so I don't have specific suggestions for this post. Please refer to earlier posts in this comment chain for a general idea of what citations would be useful.
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They did not come up with the ideas themselves, so they got them somewhere. Follow the source and all the citations show up. It must be a modern thing where online blogging randos pretend they are all geniuses.
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Better too assume they are just not aware. Technology is multi-layered cake of development. I have no doubt the only reason I know a lot of details is that I lived their development.

When standing on the shoulders of giants it's hard to tell what is below them.

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You're reading this the wrong way I think, citations aren't given because its obviously a pedagogical article about well established stuff. Much like you wouldn't give citations in a blog post explaining calculus.
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One could give citations regarding calculus it's pretty interesting. Since it was done twice by both Newton and Liebniz. There must have been cultural developments in the 1660's that demanded calculus be invented.
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The first sentence says she came across it when reading about compression. I didn't read that as her claiming to have discovered the idea or that it was a new idea, I read it as "today I learned". I think somebody who was unfamiliar with how compression algorithms or language models work would find this an approachable and interesting introduction. Not everybody studied information theory.
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they discovered from scratch themselves

If you followed the data compression scene in the 80s and early 90s, there were plenty of reinventions of LZ-ish and Huffman-ish algorithms (I also coded my own variant...), and people even tried to patent some of them, so at least for the basics I think it is something that many can discover independently; of course in these times, it's more likely they didn't.

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Perhaps tangential to your point, but I often write blog posts (although finish and publish far fewer than I start) where I write about something as it has occurred to me, informed by things I've absorbed no doubt, but without specific research. In such cases I explicitly avoid searching out prior work as a) seeing that something is well discussed and explored can take away the motivation to explore (in the same way reading puzzle solutions before starting might), and b) to avoid having green shoots of ideas shaped by the current of existing consensus. Now that doesn't mean I don't come back after doing my own thinking to see what the more well developed literature of people cleverer than me, who've thought far longer than me think; I just don't want to snuff out my own exploration at the start.

As I say most of these I never publish as I'm mainly using writing as a vehicle for thought, but when I do I'm never sure how to flag them. I don't want (imaginary, lets be honest) readers thinking I'm deluded into thinking I've found something new. I want to come up with a tag I can put on them which adds a pithy disclaimer card at the top or something so I feel more comfortable publishing them.

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Does everything have to be "news"?
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I think you'll find that 95% of all academic presentations are telling stories out of other peoples work.
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I'm glad to see someone feels similarly. There is nothing wrong with ignorance, but there's no excuse mistaking learning for invention. Especially from someone bearing the title "Developer Educator"

I don't think it's the case here, but worth noting too that LLM-written blog posts adopt this tone seemingly by default.

Never the least bit of surprise, wonder, doubt, or frustration to get in the way of the steady staccato beat of metaphors, conclusions... and three-item lists.

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> I'm glad to see someone feels similarly. There is nothing wrong with ignorance, but there's no excuse mistaking learning for invention. Especially from someone bearing the title "Developer Educator"

>> a Developer Educator at ngrok with a passion for nerd-sniping developers.

Maybe more the latter than former...

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And yet to this day, in AI threads, so many people act shocked and surprised if you dare follow the obvious implication and claim that understanding is a form of lossy compression.
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Of course it is but again "X is just Y" is often used to mislead. A brain is just neurons! A computer is just transistors! An LLM just predicts the next token! It's just like a parrot! It's just like a blurry jpeg of the internet! Kinda yes, but what do you use this for? It's a bad intuition pump is it leads people to conclude demonstrably false things about capabilities.
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Shorter description isn't understanding, let alone of it is lossy.

When you shorten a description in a lossy way, you are deciding a priori that some differences in the object don't matter, and it's not because you understand the object, but because it serves your goal of shortening the description.

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Or you actually do understand it.

You can't just assume smaller is better but it often is. And very often it's more information-dense.

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You can compress syntax, losslessly even, with zero understanding of its semantics. Zero understanding not only imbued into the compressor/decompressor, but even the designer of the compressor doesn't require understanding the semantics. Actually, even of the syntax.

A compression program can compress a book written in a language that the author of the program doesn't understand, on a topic he knows little about.

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Finding common characters and building a list of words is a low level type of understanding. Doing it better does actually start directly representing syntax patterns and that's a less-low level of understanding.

I think "losslessly even" is the wrong way to think about it. Lossless compression often requires less understanding than high quality lossy compression. If you can do a lossy compression that correctly decides what details are unimportant, that's a good sign of understanding.

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> I think "losslessly even" is the wrong way to think about it. Lossless compression often requires less understanding than high quality lossy compression. If you can do a lossy compression that correctly decides what details are unimportant, that's a good sign of understanding.

This is the crux and reminds me of things like mp3 that exploit the nature of human hearing being limited to a frequency range.

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We model the data. The model, hopefully, captures something real in the data. If it does, then it's fair to say that we understand the data better.

But it's frankly a philosophical question what's real or not. No model is going to capture absolutely everything about the thing it models - at that point, it would be the thing. The best we can hope for is that it captures everything we care about.

And no experiment or metric can tell you if you care about the right things. At best it can tell us if we care about a thing given other things we care about. "No cares in, no cares out".

To make it a little more concrete: you could compress a string from back to front. You could build an LLM to help you do that. If you care about file size, that's almost certainly a bad idea, the forward LLM will be better for that purpose. But are there purposes for which the backward LLM might be better? I think that's not so hard to imagine. Often we wonder about "what came before".

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A model will not capture every nuance of what it models, but it might capture every nuance you managed to measure properly.
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Including the things you didn't even realize you measured, or even conceptualized at all.
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I'm not aware of a better definition of "understanding" that would allow me to tell whether some system "understands" some other system. Do you happen to know one?
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See: A. M. Turing (1950) Computing Machinery and Intelligence. Mind 49: 433-460.

I mean, my interpretation is that the question Turing tried to answer is equivalent to "How can we determine whether machines understand humans/human thought?"

This only works when both systems can talk about pretty much arbitrary things, but if you want a more general method for less complex systems, perhaps having one system simulate another system is sufficient. (Which is also another Turing invention)

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There are many people who would claim that passing the Turing test is insufficient to show "understanding" (compare for example the Chinese Room thought experiment).
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Yes but it's (kind of?) a definition as you asked for.

At this point, I am unaware of a better definition. I know the Chinese Room argument (and I disagree with it), but I'm not aware whether the proponents of that argument have a better definition of understanding other than "well, the Turing Test isn't enough"...

---

PS: Interestingly the issue of compression is highly relevant regarding the Chinese Room argument -- the essential element in the Chinese Room argument is that the information is not compressed...

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If you can predict other things by understanding something, is it truly lossy compression?
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>understanding is a form of lossy compression..

No. Teaching is compression. Understanding and application is decompression.

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I would roughly say that understanding is compression and application is decompression.

You don't memorize the specific details, you memorize the flow of systems. But you get back to the details to put things into practice.

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I was speaking in the context of humans. When someone teaches you, the content coming from the teacher is very compressed. One decompress it when they can generalize and apply it. So understanding is compressed, but is not the act of compressing. I mean it is not compressed from a larger data or made by compressing a larger data. The larger data it represents never existed. It is like the definition of a fractal...
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> I was speaking in the context of humans.

So was I.

> One decompress it when they can generalize and apply it.

Generalizing is compression. Generalizing and applying are very different things.

> So understanding is compressed, but is not the act of compressing.

Understanding (noun) is compressed. Understanding (verb) is the act of creating understanding (noun) and is compression.

> The larger data it represents never existed.

The larger data is everything you take in about the subject. Experience and instruction.

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>creating understanding (noun) and is compression.

What is it compressing from?

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examples
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Reminds me of Stephen Wolfram "discovering" things in the sense that other people would say "today I learnt".
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I find it bothersome that language works this way. You can spend your whole life discovering things that are well known by the rest of the world. But the minute that you mention to a large group that you “discovered” it, suddenly you’re taking credit for discovering it for all of mankind.
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Wolfram was my example in my original rant!
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I'm glad you're pointing this out because not only are these old insights, but I'm also pretty sure I've seen variations of this blog post years ago on even HN already.

The author acting as if they discovered this independently had me feel the exact same way. Kinda irritating and almost ... disrespectful? Not sure of the right words to describe it tbh

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Fabrice Bellard published this in 2023: https://bellard.org/ts_zip/

> The ts_zip utility can compress (and hopefully decompress) text files using a Large Language Model. The compression ratio is much higher than with other compression tools.

It's not only an old idea it's been totally done already.

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As much as I want to, I sadly don't think Information Theory makes sense in this setting, and I really wanted to believe this. When Shannon made his theory of information, he was always dealing with informational representations on the abstraction level of bits. At Bell Labs, a lot of the work was on the compression of data for transfer over telephone wires. Entropy coding, later codexes like algorithmic coding, and all compression on this level assumes that you have a bit-based X, and you compress it.

However, in deep neural networks, you are dealing with compression on different levels of abstraction. How do you decide what shared features a peacock and a palm tree have? At what scale should they be represented? How do you deal with invariance under affine transforms? Do you want to open the box of invariance under non-affine transforms?

When you start looking at what it would mean to compress feature representations, you immediately get to the question of data. You realize that Shannon simply was given a form of a very low abstraction data and that information theory came out to handle data at this level, but it's not suited for the data representations of many higher level modalities.

If you read Society of Mind by Marvin Minsky, which has aged well to about 80%, you can get the hint of the kind of abstractions that humans make and what would be needed to represent them, this is not representable in bits, you need to go to higher level shared features, and then you open all of the questions above as well as credit assignment, mutual information approximation, Fischer information between bayesians, etc.

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> How do you decide what shared features a peacock and a palm tree have? At what scale should they be represented? How do you deal with invariance under affine transforms? Do you want to open the box of invariance under non-affine transforms?

The whole point is that the representation is learned. When you talk about various levels of abstraction, you're missing that all of these levels are representable with words and the relationships between them. That is verbatim what LLMs are optimized for. Interestingly, when you take an embedding, you do see that some transformations in embedding space actually hold which is quite interesting (e.g. tree + many ~ forest)

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1) I am talking about representations beyond language models and language embeddings. If you take for example image, video, audio, 3D-spatial DICOM or combinations like VLMs. If you ask a language model to make an image of a Begonia ferox leaf without training it with images as well, it will not be able to represent this.

2) Language is already a higher-order lossy compressed abstraction made by humans to communicate fast and fill out the left out information with a learned prior. If you train a model on language only, it will not have the opportunity to have a non-compressed representation to make its own abstraction from.

3) If you are LLM-pilled and believe that we will be able to reach arbitrary levels of precise informational representation using language only, and that all abstractions that we may ever want can live on every single embedding layer in an LLM, your argument is fair.

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1) If you ask a language model to make an image of a Begonia ferox leaf without training it with images as well

is this not true also of humans?

2) The idea that there is a non-compressed prior is already philosophical no? It seems to just be a rehash of whether an example of a "Chair" is a representation of a perfect Idea of a chair, or whether accidental things put together read as a chair. Its just dualism or not, Plato vs aristotle but for LLMs vs human learning.

If we do happen to just form an abstraction from less examples than an LLM, then its a question of efficiency in the learning algo and the capability to fill the gaps faster/better.

Obvs a world model and multi modal learning would close the gap between LLM latent space and what the human mind encodings might look like. But you can formulate a reality where humans do not have access to a non compressed representation (or even say that doesnt exist) and we are just more efficient at abstraction and recollection

3) There are multiple answers to this. One is that language can just be a prong in the learning modes available. Another is that language is many times redundant and includes supplemental information and nuances that despite being a higher order abstraction has enough additional information to reconstruct entire messages even after the lossy transmission.

Btw I am pretty against LLMs as path forward, but I have been interested in their ability to solve problems with Convergent solutions and their learning model as a lossy compression algorithm where instead of saving the actual data, you save a very good guesser of the next word. So if a text is part of its traning algo then you get almost a 1:1 (like a zip dictionary) but if its not, then he gives you something that plausibly could be in an imaginary Zip with that title.

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Ah Sir David MacKay. I so respect him. Great explainer and speaker. He had built this text entry tool called Dasher [0] - that I'd heard him introduce at Princeton around 2006. It was basically an early language model that predicted which characters are more likely than others, given what you've already types and it would adjust the sizes of the available next characters based on their probabilities.

[0] https://dasher.at/about/

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He really was fantastic, and prolific in multiple fields.

He wrote https://www.withouthotair.org/ (creative commons) and was the Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change.

Dedicated to "to those who will not have the benefit of two billion years' accumulated energy reserves".

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I also went to a couple of his (fantastic) undergraduate courses, and have a huge amount of respect for him.

That said, I think it's worth mentioning that Climate Change Without the Hot Air has aged pretty badly, and I'd be reluctant to recommend it to people who don't already have the background to understand what's aged well and what hasn't.

The high level approach of making high level numerical estimates makes sense, but it dismisses solar energy in about a page due to assumed high costs. It turns out that even if you're David Mackay you can still be caught out by exponentials :) I notice now that the version you link has some inline updates pointing out how off the assumptions in this section were, but it seems to me that's not enough; you probably need to redo the entire analysis based on what we know today rather than trying to make purely local adjustments.

On the other hand the point at biofuels are even more inefficient, and therefore a dead end even before you consider broader environmental impacts, are well made and something that is sadly not yet widely reflected in policy.

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> biofuels are even more inefficient, and therefore a dead end

Only if energy density doesn't matter. But it really does, though. Battery powered electric trucking? Dead end. Battery powered aviation? Dead end. Battery powered shipping? Dead end.

[edit] Maybe there's some sustainable way to convert solar energy into sufficiently energy dense fuels that isn't biological, but so far it seems like seed oils or algae are probably the least bad?

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> It was basically an early language model that predicted which characters are more likely than others, given what you've already types and it would adjust the sizes of the available next characters based on their probabilities.

"adjust the sizes of the available next characters": you mean assigning less bits to characters the most likely to come next, and more bits to the least likely characters to come next?

So it's not totally unlike adaptive Huffman coding but instead of updating the tree on already visited characters, here the tree with the weights of the possible following character is predictive?

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Adjust the size as in making the GUI element larger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_%28software%29 has a picture of completing "Wikiped".

Try it out: `apt install dasher`. https://packages.debian.org/sid/dasher

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It is infact a visual implementation of arithmetic coding, and he used it in his lectures to teach arithmetic coding in the lecture following the one on huffman coding. The video lectures posted earlier are highly recommended, best course I took as an undergrad
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This is basically a thesis supported by Shannon’s information theory.

Any rigorous CS program should cover this in depth.

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Better prediction being better compression is Shannon 1948, and the link to machine learning is MacKay 2003 at Cambridge.
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It also helps explain to people that LLMs are as likely as bzip to develop "consciousness".
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Let alone a sack of wet, self replicating protein! Just endless copying... How could it ever do anything more?
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I suspect you're being snarky :-) but this is a really interesting question, and one that has had a lot of research done. I'm not current (I stopped following folks doing this research closely around 2019) but what we 'didn't' know about how brains work was still huge. Signaling levels, enzymes, the connectome, quantum effects, it is a really deep question.

That said, once we do get a working idea of how it works, and can perhaps synthesize a brain artificially with proteins, it will inform us on the next steps for silicon realization of that.

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I think the point is that tremendous complexity can arise from relatively simple mechanisms. That is what life is, at many levels. I’m not at all convinced that the current LLM approach will yield something we can broadly call consciousness but saying that it’s a simple concept and therefore won’t support consciousness is a specious argument imo.
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I completely agree, tremendous complexity can arise from simple mechanisms. Gleick's Chaos is a really good introduction to that. I was talking about the article though, and the mechanisms currently used for training and inference in LLMs. Those mechanisms are mathematically precise (unlike Chaotic attractors) and as the author points out, achieve the same function as compressors do in a strict bit pattern minimization role. Sometimes tensor math is pretty complex, like the FFT and DCTs on JPEG compression, but with the same inputs you get the same results. And while a JPEG will never decompress to a different image than the one that was compressed in the first place, LLMs do not 'infer' token streams that haven't been trained in their training process. The big difference here is that if you imagine a JPEG compressor that compresses 100 different images into one 'chunk', you can see how to provoke it to produce any one of the images it previously compressed. And with a bit of creativity you can have it express different images in different parts of the resulting composite. FWIW I looked at patenting something like this for digital cameras to give them more "shots" space for a given amount of SD storage.[1]

Given the way that models work in 'inference' mode (vs 'training' mode) you can't forward bias the result into the correct result when there are multiple forward results that have identical weights. It's the root cause of hallucinations, and you've lost information in the training phase that you can't then use to discriminate between the 'right' answer and an equally valid 'wrong' answer.

[1] FWIW I could never recover enough state to insure that the image it regenerated was all of the same image you took. So you might get the street but one of the houses might be a house that was in a different picture you took. That kind of bug. Mostly arising out of the same kind of problem you have with using hashes to find documents, when you get a hash collision two documents have the same hash, so you don't know which one to return.

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I do not understand this intuition that "true consciousness has to be random". The things that make me me are highly deterministic!

> LLMs do not 'infer' token streams that haven't been trained in their training process

While we're at it, this is simply untrue (in-context learning) unless you generalize "token streams" so radically that it could be readily analogized to humans as well.

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This self replicating proteins can do a lot of stuff that a program running inside a computer cannot do. Like producing secretions, generate electricity, generate light, generate force etc etc....
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They're also way more robust distributed systems. Imagine a compute substrate that was continuously mutating, dying, regenerating, cancering, being polluted by various environmental and self-generated contaminants (e.g. alcohol, adrenaline) yet all the while still able to function as a coherent whole. I think this is sort of the pipe dream of the Internet as a system that is robust under strategic nuclear attack. But us meatbags actually do it.
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