upvote
[dead]
reply
[dead]
reply
[flagged]
reply
Ah, the classic whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) defence.
reply
Just happy that I'm not a useful idiot.
reply
Not that relevant here, as they try to attack Israel with that influence. Like Hamas that organize some protests in the EU [1] or Qatar's Al-Jazeera censoring anti-Hamas criticism from Gazans [2]. So it's more like "if they are attacked by that? why can't they use it themselves."

Like, shooting a gun is bad. But shooting the shooter? Not the same (thus, not "whataboutism" because you can't say "who care about other shooters in the scene - whataboutism!") .

[1] https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-894273

[2] https://themedialine.org/top-stories/is-al-jazeera-a-mouthpi...

reply
Shooting the shooter? Are you suggesting that all of the tens of thousands of children killed in gaza were shooters? What I don't understand about these types of arguments is that it's not clear who you are trying to convince. Those who already agree with you don't need convincing, and the rest of us aren't going to buy into it what's obviously contradicted by overwhelming evidence which even international courts agree with. I suspect these attempts to influence LLMs will fail for the same reason: you can produce as much "think tank" material as you like, but in the end the LLM will reason about it in the wider context of other available information, and see the think tank propaganda for what it is. All the more so now that there are articles discussing this very point (which the LLM will also presumably see).
reply
> Shooting the shooter? Are you suggesting that all of the tens of thousands of children killed in gaza were shooters?

Wat 0_o? Did you even read my comment?

reply
Exactly, people complaining that Israel are some elite evil force in the world while literally being outraged and influenced wholesale by the exact information campaigns they are upset with Israel for using...

I really don't know how we're going to ever combat it. The main issue I see is there is a very very strong human tendency to "take sides" and "be part of something", and people have always worked out how to exploit that and use it for nefarious purposes.

I'm just worried that with social media there is basically no way out and it's really looking dangerous for the time being.

reply
so both sides are the same?
reply
I guess, if you toss out core first-principles like "self defense", "stand your ground", sequence of events, etc. Which many do these days, and just decide based on vibes.
reply
[flagged]
reply
"""far from being a perfect state""" ??? it's been captured by a bloodthirsty clique, and all the intelligent & wise people in it are leaving
reply
It has been captured by bloodthirsty clique is true. But so does the US and every other nation around Israel.

Just check the facts about each and every government in the middle east.

reply
what about not whatabouting facts? we are not talking about the miss universe contest here. keep your identity small, it will help you think more clearly.
reply
It’s not “whataboutism”, it’s micro geo political trends. Know the difference.
reply
I mean the bloodthirsty clique that has captured the US is called Israel.
reply
I think the US has been like this since its founding. The genocide it supports is revealing not only the truth behind Israel’s existence but also the true nature of US foreign (and domestic) policy.
reply
I don't think that's true either. I get the feeling it's more of a "flood the zone" Steve Bannon style "disrupt the other continents" geostrategic drunken-master kung fu.
reply
> Qatar lies

Netanyahu said that "Qatar is not an enemy country". Is he wrong about that? https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-08-14/ty-article/.p...

reply
Its a messy situation. Qatar hosted HAMAS's bot farms and leadership until 2024 (or 2025, I don't remember) when Israel destroyed it with literal bombs dropped by a F-35I. That happened quite near to both a Qatari military base and a US military base. That doesn't happen unless the Qatari military/government gave approval. I'm no expert in Qatari politics but I would guess that there are significant support for HAMAS in the population. The politicians probably wanted HAMAS leadership and IW operations out of their country, but they also wanted plausible deniability with their own population. So given all of that and assuming there are things happening we don't understand, is Qatar an enemy of Israel? Publicly the answer is no. But its probably also dependent on their respective interests and situationally independent.
reply
I don’t support Netanyahu, and so does close to 50% of Israelis.

Qatar is spreading fake information and is funding Hamas as well as anti-Israel classes in major US colleges.

If you don’t trust Netanyahu then you should disregard the link you shared as well and that just strengthens my point.

reply
> Qatar is spreading fake information and is funding Hamas as well as anti-Israel classes in major US colleges.

This is absolutely true but people don't want to hear about this. Qatar is the main propagator of many student bodies in the US. This is how you get students saying "gloabalize intifada", "death to the USA”, occupying buildings, etc.

Qatar has a long, well funded strategy for influence in the west which is pretty much their only leverage.

In addition they are the main funders of Hamas, alongside hosting the Hamas leaders in fancy hotels in Doha for many, many years.

reply
The amount of selective outrage directed at Jews, Israel and "Zionists" is proof to me that the fake information campaigns are super duper effective and I'd say dangerously effective. I have friends who are generally psychotically outraged with Israelis and some how just pretend all Israelis are scum / should be "disposed of" or something, and they should "go back to Europe".

I see almost zero concern for people of Sudan, North Korea, Russia, Ukraine, Uighurs, Detained US immigrants etc and I'd say zero anger towards these people's oppressors, as if they are just "good guys misunderstood".

Of course I believe all people should be safe, free from harm etc, but I just cannot some how get totally outraged about one specific cause and neglect all the rest. The only reason I could imagine myself doing this is if I'd been "red pilled" by some social media campaigns, which I suspect more people than I'd like to admit are.

reply
I think what pisses people off about Israel and the Zionist movement is the mixture of entitlement and monstrosity.
reply
Russia and China benefit directly from this distraction.

You can see it here on HN whenever, for example, someone mentioned censorship by Chinese models, there will be responses trying to change the topic to Gaza, with the misinformation that Western models refuse to discuss that issue.

reply
> The amount of selective outrage directed at Jews, Israel and "Zionists" is proof to me that the fake information campaigns are super duper effective and I'd say dangerously effective. I have friends who are generally psychotically outraged with Israelis and some how just pretend all Israelis are scum / should be "disposed of" or something, and they should "go back to Europe".

It is so effective, because they make such an easy target of themselves all the time. Anyone following the news and thinking a bit and maybe also keeping track of their crimes, could easily believe any claims about any additional crimes Israel is engaging in. Their own behavior makes it very easy to believe they have done even more terrible crimes.

Escalation of conflicts into wars with any neighbor country, that isn't on a tree by the count of 3. Assassinations of disliked individuals, regardless of in which country they reside, just like Russia did in the UK. Inhumane treatment of prisoners. Incredible discrimination of their neighbors. Supporting violent and armed mobs, to rob people of their homes. Illegal expansion of territory.

I mean, with that sort of track record, there is not much we wouldn't believe they are capable of. And then you have completely delusional people online, who go maximalist in their attitude, trying to defend all of that and trying to lay claim to all the territory that Israel would love to conquer. That's basically the Zionists. I don't see how they are not loath-worthy, and I also haven't yet seen something like a "mild, non-maximalist Zionist", who would convince me of "not all Zionists are bad".

> I see almost zero concern for people of Sudan, North Korea, Russia, Ukraine, Uighurs, Detained US immigrants etc and I'd say zero anger towards these people's oppressors, as if they are just "good guys misunderstood".

That's because in some of those cases there is little influence that "the West" has. I do think, that you are grouping quite uneven situations there though.

Sudan: Inner country turmoil, civil war and militias. What exactly do you expect others to do? March in?

North Korea: Eh, well, a crazy dictatorship, armed with nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. At least they stay contained in their own country mostly, when they are not sending meat to Russia.

Russia: It is being dealt with by Ukraine and its supporters. They are f'ed for the coming decades and maybe will even crumble under the looming economic crisis. All because their dictator couldn't help but invade a neighbor and doubles down infinitely.

Ukraine: But the West _does_ do something about it? I mean, did you follow the news the last couple of years? Ukraine's supporters are everywhere!

Uighurs: What exactly _is_ the situation? Have you visited Xinjiang?

US immigrants: How are they comparable with all the other situations you have mentioned?

> but I just cannot some how get totally outraged about one specific cause and neglect all the rest.

Then you have an eternity of feeling bad ahead of you. We have so many crisis and bad situations and crimes against humanity ongoing on this planet, that you will never be not outraged. I don't think we can "demand" outrage from others. A human only can show they care about so much. Gotta pick your battles.

reply
Yeah but the Haredi will outbreed the rational liberals of Israel and vote towards extremism. If there was a Muslim country with as much power as Israel attacking other countries, it would equally be right to call it out.
reply
It’s mostly the national settlers that pull it toward extremism at its current state, not Haredim.

But it’s also October 7 that made the average joe even more extreme in their opinions.

reply
I mean, they did bomb them. you don't do that to friends.

I doubt there are any true friends in the middle east, just temporary allies of convinence.

reply
>they did bomb them. you don't do that to friends

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Does this mean that USA and Israel aren't friends?

reply
>>When Obama used social networks, he was called a genius, but when it’s someone you don’t like

Obama used social networks to spread a milquetoast 'yes we can' message, not to justify an ongoing genocide. How is that even a comparison. Israel is closer to Triumph des Willens than it is to promoting the Affordable Care Act, you do realize that right?

It's not 'far from being a perfect state', it's waging old testament wars of extermination on its neighbors and towns

reply
It has been attacked by a Palestinian militia terrorist group. Is it waging old testament wars? No, but it is retaliating at a rate the western world refuses to accept because the western world has different, much much milder kind of problems.
reply
You're not wrong that there's an element of self-defense. What makes it harder to accept is the lack of effort or willingness to de-escalate the conflict.
reply
That kind of euphemism is just a joke in light of the racist and fascist rhetoric by Israeli pundits and politicians, how they call even babies terrorists, while at the same time making shit up about beheaded babies and whatnot. Even just the sheer cruelty and stupidity IDF soldiers put on display proudly, voluntarily, would wholly refute it. Israelis making their joke videos about Palestinians by itself would suffice. Only a deeply sick, deeply evil and deeply stupid society can create such artifacts. You may come to a different conclusions, but you may not gloss over all the input into that judgement.
reply
I think you’ve been brainwashed so I’m out. Peace.
reply
deleted
reply
Its always easier to attack the person then the arguments being made. It also shows your true colours.
reply
[dead]
reply
[flagged]
reply
> Israel has been defending itself against for 78 years in both the physical and informational domain, and will continue to do so, just like any other country on earth.

Of course we could argue any country try to defend itself, but an ever expanding bellicose colony stealing lands from adjacent countries is hardly what could be described as a "defending" stance.

> People need to wake up to the one-sided lies of the antizionist hate movement that single it out and want to destroy it and its people.

The end of a State doesn't mean the end of its citizens. It simply mean that a state apparatus and power structure is taken down and replaced by something else.

reply
How would you envision the end of the state?
reply
> ever expanding bellicose colony stealing lands from adjacent countries is hardly what could be described as a "defending" stance.

Asides from the idea that Jews can colonise Judea, Israel returned Sinai to Egypt and left Gaza in 2005 only returning after the recent Hamas murder/rape rampage, which shows ‘ever expanding’ to be an obvious lie.

reply
The bodies of dead children speak for themselves.
reply
Yes! Hamas deliberately attacked Jewish children like the Bibas twins and that girl that watched her father slaughtered whereas the IDF put Israeli soldiers lives on the line to avoid civilian casualties.
reply
Yes, but statistically Israel (IDF + settlers) commits crimes like that on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis.
reply
> the IDF put Israeli soldiers lives on the line to avoid civilian casualties.

Nonsense.

reply
Defensive ethnic cleansing, defensive genocide...
reply
You don't start an international terrorist movement, bomb british colonial authorities, use money to influence british colonial authorities, create armed miliciais and massively finance migration to a land that is owner by other people, kill and expell them by violent means from their cities, homes and farms, use your influence to force the UN to partition the land giving the majority and the best land for you, and then ignores this partition wanting even more land and then you get to call it defense.
reply
By owned by other people you meant the Ottomans, right?

Cause they seemed to be just fine selling that land.

Also “ignoring the partition”? Literally the day the partition was adopted, the Arab league attacked Israel. 6 nations to 1, yet Israelis outsmarted them all (which is why you keep hating us).

Read more here (not TikTok) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

reply
Afaik it was forbidden to sell lands in Palestine to Jewish people, though I don't think it was that effective in stopping lands being bought out by Jewish people due to weak central authority and worsening economy.
reply
My dude, how on earth could you look at stuff like https://www.ft.com/content/f6b953fc-a6ad-48cd-bed1-d42619b57... and not realize you have completely lost the plot? Seriously...
reply
deleted
reply
Who knew that seizing the literal holy land and expelling most of the native population would make the neighbors angry?
reply
About equal numbers of Palestinians were displaced from the new, UN sanctioned state of Israel, as Jews from adjoining states. And many many more people have been displaced since then. While undoubtedly tragic, most displaced people at some point move on with their lives, and stop terrorising their neighbours and the world.
reply
> While undoubtedly tragic, most displaced people at some point move on with their lives, and stop terrorising their neighbours and the world.

The irony is that this statement (which I disagree with) could be applied equally well to both Israel and the Palestinians.

reply
"Okay, we stole the country and expelled the native population, but they should just get over it and move on."

It would be easier for the Palestinians to just move on if millions of them didn't live under 59 years of Israeli military occupation, with no end in sight. They have no way of moving on, because the IDF controls their lives, and Israeli settlers are taking their land piece-by-piece.

reply
[flagged]
reply
Therefore it is ok to commit genocide, ethnic cleansing and steal land two generstions later?

Israeli leadership is as fascist as it gets. Openly so.

reply
If that ethnic group assembles a military group that invades your border and slaughters 1200 of your people in 1 day, then retaliation is expected. FAFO.

But I suspect you know nothing about Jews besides social media.

Next thing you’ll say we’re not native to that land right? We only lived in the middle east forever, but our food is cultural appropriation too, right?

reply
Explain to me like I'm 5, how a nation capable of such propaganda to install bombs in communication devices, hacked to be bought by leaders of terrorist organizations, capable of bombing the leader of Iran did NOT know about this attack? And if they did know, didn't do anything to prepare for it?
reply
When you get a bit older you will realize that just because someone does amazing things doesn’t mean they are omnipotent and omniscient.

Also, there was a strong political will to try a peaceful approach to Gaza (with thousands of Gazans coming in to Israel for work every day), and with the belief that Hamas wants a peaceful approach as well.

Hamas is planning further attacks now, what do you suggest Israel do about it?

reply
And when we both get a bit older, it may come to light that a state leader let this happen, hopefully history will show reality for what it was.

Still, that doesn't absolve Hamas from any actions done, they are terrorists at it's core and the worst type, they are willing to use civilians(and babies) to further their agenda, I don't condone them and personally and think the world would be a better place without them(as any other extremist)

reply
All you have is speculative conspiracy theories and a “hope” that your imaginary facts are true.

What you are actually doing is trying to blame the victim for “allowing” it to happen.

reply
Retaliation by starving and shooting over 20000 kids?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-says-netanyahu-knew-for-...

reply
[flagged]
reply
Do you mean human shields?

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-h...

Genocide denial is not cool. Do you really think Hamas, who has 40000 fighters, had 20000 kid soldiers? You're crazy!

reply
> Next thing you’ll say we’re not native to that land right? We only lived in the middle east forever

There were very few Jews in Palestine for nearly 2000 years. The founders of Israel were almost all Europeans, and their families had been European for almost 2000 years.

This would be like the Italians showing up today and claiming that they are the rightful owners of France, because Gaul was a Roman province before 500 AD.

reply
> If that ethnic group assembles a military group that invades your border and slaughters 1200 of your people in 1 day, then retaliation is expected. FAFO.

Note that I said ethnic cleansing and genocide, both go on and went on for years. Also, it is Israel who is expanding, putting settlers in places where they should not be. The idea that the ethnic group being pushed away is not allowed to defend themselves and if they do they should be subject of genocide is literally fascist.

Israel is not engaged in self defence as much as they are engaged in aggression.

reply