Produce working product first, validate the idea, stabilize the business, start generating profit, and then you can start optimizing your costs.
In fact optimization is by far the easiest part of the process because there are many system programming experts on this HN thread who consider these optimizations to be trivial.
> In fact optimization is by far the easiest part of the process because there are many system programming experts on this HN thread who consider these optimizations to be trivia
This is a misconception when you including roll out as a part of the change too, changing data once its running in production is hard, changing the data structure is even harder and when you talk about making changes in cache which is at the hot path its probably the hardest. Looking at the graph at the end it looks like it took them 4+ months to roll out the changes after optimization.
100% agreement on this. There are a class of optimizations that can happen transparently. Those can happen at any time, and are fine to defer. Not all profiling and scalability improvements fall into this bucket. Some are very expensive to roll out, and ignoring these concerns can cause huge headaches down the line. Not fun to hear, but it’s definitely true. Even with LLMs, this can still be a huge challenge.
I think Cloudflare became big only because they were so much more optimized than others that they offered some services for free that others were not offering. If running costs are high, you only burn (VC) cash and then you exit.
I still look after a few VMware estates and a lot of Proxmox ones (that used to run VMware).
Hilariously, VMware is described as "enterprise class", which I can only conclude means MVP and a bit wanky.
Today I repaired a Proxmox HA + Ceph node using boring old normal Linux skills and as it turns out I have 30 years of those. Part way through a remote v8 to 9 upgrade I think I lost comms due to using OpenvSwitch for networking and despite using tmux for the upgrade session. Anyway, the Proxmox ISO was useless for rescue but the classic systemrescuecd worked nicely and I could run dpkg in a chroot.
VMware "used" Linux and never really gave back. I don't miss fixing vCentres and all the other nonsense that "Enterprise" wankery has foisted on me over the years.
Then I actually met some enterprise software, and realised that it means 'expensive', 'bespoke', 'one-off', and usually 'janky'.
Why solve the problem directly when you can abstract everything away into FactoryFactoryImplementationInterfaceFactorys, and have something that is both a memory-hog and completely unassailable to any normal programmer seeking to understand it or make changes?
I'm joking...but not entirely. It sounds impressive on a promo packet when you say you've saved 100 TB of RAM / $$$ through whatever technique. But it sounds a lot less impressive when you say if this system grows to this size in x years, I will have saved 100 TB, especially when no one yet knows how large the system will really be in that time or what the cost of RAM will be. I dunno, maybe if you say that x years ago, I made a decision that now is saving us 100 TB, that's kinda impressive, but you're also getting credit for it x years after you did the work. It also doesn't have the implication that it must be inherently complex/hard because some other smart person chose the other way. And there is a bias to care more about recent accomplishments. So I don't really think it'd be valued the same at all.
Also, in general big tech (at least Google) prefers growing the userbase over improving efficiency. Periodically efficiency is rewarded, e.g. when RAM cost suddenly balloons or some big must-have feature has suddenly used up capacity planned for something else. You get rewarded for doing efficiency work on demand, not eagerly.
I once got a $100 peer bonus for finding 100,000 cores that were essentially stranded by an accounting error in another team's migration script.
Good thing they jumped on that as soon as they were profitable instead of burning cash. Oh wait...
I think a distinction to draw here is that Cloudflare had relatively large capital raises and were almost immediately profitable¹. They had the luxury of throwing away money. Judicious optimisation makes sense for scrappy start-ups, especially when trivial optimisations like these could easily be farmed off to an agent.
Acknowledging this isn’t always easy or possible, but just pointing out that this is a self reinforcing problem.
I meant desirable for me to live there, not as an investment. Who wants to buy a home in place they don't want to live?
I mentioned acres of land. You normally don't have multiple acres of land in the suburbs.
> is it possible to buy a reasonably nice home located in a reasonably nice amerikkkan city… for $300k in 2026?
Who wants acreage? We want homes.
not everybody is so lucky to be able to go in that order? The first part requires upfront capital/investment?
type Wasteful struct {
a int16
b int
c byte
}
type Aligned struct {
b int
a int16
c byte
}
In langages that don’t there’s a tension between memory use and human readability / consistency of the layout. There are also other domains which can be affected e.g. databases, it’s a concern / issue when using postgres.
Looks like they're missing the obvious optimisation of putting the record data right after the CacheEntry members instead of allocating memory separately though. But that might just be me as a C-programmer talking and not be all that easy in Rust.
[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/dynamically-sized-types....
I assumed they couldn't do that because they're using it with some kind of generic HashMap<K, V>. In that situation, can "V" be dynamically sized?
A dynamically sized "V" would mean you can't have an array of them, which might preclude some hash map implementations.
, which HashMap does not do, i.e. the keys and values have to have a statically known size.
Cloudflare started to pick Zig recently, for projects, that have memory constraints.
You definitely can and this is done a lot. What you might mean is that you can't use standard library's collections with them (this is getting stabilized soon!) and have to use third-party, but that is a different thing than "can't use arenas".
> Rust is not a good choice for this kind of tricks.
Rust can do those tricks, but it's true that it is hard than in C or Zig. That said there are often crates to help.
The CloudFlare manually implemented a clumsy version of this.
Wouldn’t it be nice for the compiler to manage this for you in the same way that your database engine does when it saves a “row”?
Are you able to explain this? Do you mean an N sized array where each entry is either a value or a pointer to a value where the 'pointed-to' values are after the end of the array?
I'm trying to underatnd how you'd do this without having to parse M-1 elements to get the Mth entry if you did a [{size0, value0}, ....., {sizeN, valueN}] arrangement
In a row oriented database, you get a contiguous spot for the whole row even when there are multiple variable width fields.
When I was using one malloc() per entry, a large blacklist took up 237 megabytes of memory. The same blacklist, once optimized to be loaded with a single malloc() call, only took up 9.5 megabytes of memory.
https://samboy.github.io/blog/entries/MaraDNS.html#BlogEntry...
Even a BTree with compressed prefix keys can save space in the qname.
If you previous had three distinct Vec objects, then Rust would guarantee that you can't index out of bounds. If you now put all those objects into a single Vec and rely on offsets, then you now open the door to indexing out of range of these sub-slices without any panics.
It's a minor point, and it doesn't really invalidate the optimization, but I'm surprised the article didn't mention it.
For example in the Vec case, you could theoretically build an alternative which encodes the “three sections” property internally, and ensures correctness at construction time for the pointers. Not as completely safe as a Vec, but you can still get similar benefits for the “business logic”.
But I agree, just having a custom structure that does not provide a safe wrapper around this would be sacrificing standard guarantees.
Not really. You just need to make the underlying fields private and provide methods to get slices to the data you need.
Thank being said in this case it should be impossible to index out of bounds so maybe a panic is warented.
Which isn’t to say this optimization is a bad idea, just to say it’s sort of a straw man to imply coding in Rust to take advantage of safety guarantees is “serving Rust”
Relevant support page, though light in details: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/captive-portal
Edit: ah, yes, DNS can be hijacked too (requires intercepting outgoing traffic on port 53 therefore incompatible with DoH), that may require fewer computing resources. Still need http otherwise the server cannot use the correct cert chain.
Edit 2: Wikipedia says both methods are used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal and also mentions RFC 8910. I suspected something like that existed, hence my initial disclaimer.
My point was: that domain is not treated any differently from other domains.
The right way is that there's DHCP option for the network to signal "I have a captive portal", that's been standardized for over a decade.
… or … IDK … just stop shoving ads down people's throats just because they want WiFi.
It is almost like nobody even thought during the design phase about what might happen down the road.
This is why so much software is bloated and often buggy. Just gets something that half-way works out the door ASAP and worry about the rest later (too often, never).
In the case of internet infrastructure I don't think there was anybody even up to the year 2000 who had any idea of how bit this was going to be. And even now we have IPV4 and lots of legacy to deal with. Cloudflare is not my favorite company, let's put it like that, but in this case they show how the sausage is made and I think that should be applauded. Much better than 'why were down again for X hours'.
> Big Pineapple uses jemalloc, an allocator designed for multithreaded, allocation-heavy workloads.
jemalloc multithreaded performance is actually poor(ish) compared to other modern allocators, which makes it a weird choice. But even weirder is why they're even using an allocator in the first place compared to a va MAP_ANON | MAP_NORESERVE arena carveout approach? You can also do punning that way too, which I'm not even certain if Rust supports?
And they say nobody uses IPV6.
every dept knows what they could do with more budget, the budget for those things just never comes
now agents have utilized budget more effeftively, unbottlenecking many things, including engineering blogs
Interestingly this is exactly how netlink works-ish: https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/focal/man3/netlink.3.ht...
You start, get the type & length, and then that is how many bytes you read.
Some issues with that when you deserialize, from a raw stream in to `[u8; 4096]` buffer, the alignment is only guaranteed to be on 1 byte, not 4 bytes.
In practice it is 4 bytes, but if you run those tests with Miri, you'll get yelled at. So the fix there is to declare the buffer with a type that mandates the alignment of the largest type that you're going to be deserializing.
So then you start your buffer as follows: `[u32; 1024]`, and with `slice::from_raw_parts` you get to turn that into `[u8; 4096]` with the expected alignment.
As an exercise I wrote a streaming parser for netlink, the current existing package serializes everything, all at once.
Hey dang can I get my rate limit turned off pretty please?
What's the speed of service/response time relative to the data source?
At that point it might be enough to replace your multiple caches with fewer in-RAM databases?
It's an interesting problem.
This is an incorrect statement. Caches do not have a requirement of being smaller than their source data set. CDN is an example of a cache that generally matches the size of the source data.
Not really, TTLs are often short, but IPs might not change for years.
You can probably generate your own TTL, at scale, and avoid many DNS requests.
Or alternatively, if you don't tamper why would I want to use a service that serves stale data?
You can define away ‘stale’ by picking a consistency model, but look inside the consistency machinery and you will see fresher data you aren’t allowed to have yet.
https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8767/
As a corollary, there is obviously no floor on refetching unexpired RRs, of course, except for efficiency concerns.
At least in my country (UK) I know of no law relating to DNS caching.
Why throwaway perfectly good data every few minutes that is only modified every couple of years, just so someone can move their domain quickly when they eventually wish to? It is my contention that a [caching] DNS service can do far better. Trusting user (domain owner) input blindly is not for me.
I should be a bit clearer here; the TTL is an upper bound on how long it can be cached. Caches are free to consult more frequently but not less frequently. That said, out of respect for upstream cache operators and authoritative servers, most DNS caches honor TTLs as best they can.
Advocating to do things against agreed-upon standards without a compelling reason and without giving due consideration to the adverse consequences is one of the hallmarks of a bad engineer. Even Microsoft played nice with Internet standards for the most part (although with some notable exceptions at the application layer that got them well-deserved criticism).
The data source is authoritative name servers operated by third parties, some of which are slow on their own, some of which are behind slow or lossy networks. Origin response times vary between probably 1 ms and 2 seconds +/- origins that never respond.
DNS is designed to distribute query load to the edge as much as possible, and that's enabled by caching. It just so happens that "the edge" is now becoming concentrated among a small set of providers because they wanted to make a business out of it.[1] They knew that this would be expensive going in, though.
[1] Nobody has to use 8.8.8.8 or 1.1.1.1. Most people can use their ISP's cache or a local cache instead without any noticeable difference in behavior.
Were there no design discussions/reviews when the system was setup to catch trivial things like this?
Rule 1. You can't tell where a program is going to spend its time. Bottlenecks occur in surprising places, so don't try to second guess and put in a speed hack until you've proven that's where the bottleneck is.
Rule 2. Measure. Don't tune for speed until you've measured, and even then don't unless one part of the code overwhelms the rest.
Rule 3. Fancy algorithms are slow when n is small, and n is usually small. Fancy algorithms have big constants. Until you know that n is frequently going to be big, don't get fancy. (Even if n does get big, use Rule 2 first.)
Rule 4. Fancy algorithms are buggier than simple ones, and they're much harder to implement. Use simple algorithms as well as simple data structures.
Rule 5. Data dominates. If you've chosen the right data structures and organized things well, the algorithms will almost always be self-evident. Data structures, not algorithms, are central to programming.
https://web.archive.org/web/20260314210910/https://users.ece...
So you agree that they should've designed the system to use the appropriate data structure from the beginning?
Genuine question, is software performance really linear like that, that one can and should only fight the tightest bottleneck, one workload at a time? Never really sounded right.
It also sounds like the typical sleight of hand where the difficult bit is simply laundered a layer up, in this case the choice of what workload one investigates.
Sometimes it's a lot of small things everywhere and you can pick up significant performance after a lot of small value fixes. In this case, caching wire data instead of structured data is almost one of these, because the contribution to response time for serving a cache hit is small... otoh it happens so often than a small improvement matters; but this is a pretty focused use case, you usually hit the many smalln improvement issue in a less focused application where there are many code paths.
Sometimes the whole code structure / data structures are so wrong, but it works and perf is bad and profiling will never tell you. This article is not that case; these data structures only needed refinement.
At the point someone queries the 100TB of RAM, then maybe it is worth revisiting but even that has risks. You have to design the migration path, have fallback mechanisms etc.
So how would you decide which path to take in situations like this?
if you spend cycles on nitty gritty opinions like this time to market goes out further and further out. some napkin math, 130 gen13 servers cost "only" ~$2.6M. relative to the importance of the 1.1.1.1 and the market at the time. that is nothing to cloudflare.
this is not to say good system design does not matter. it very much does, but making that call at that time would've butchered the prodcut very much similar to google+, youtube etc.
It's also not nothing, otherwise it would never be optimized away now, but left as is. After all, wasting time on optimization delays "time to market" for other useful features.
I also don't get the reference to YouTube, it's a very successful product, how was it butchered by good system design???
You're tasked with making a DNS caching recursive resolver that can operate at a large scale and will be run on thousands of servers each of which has a lot of GBs of ram.
You are given some period of time to build this and make it production ready. How do you spend your time:
* Focusing on making sure that the resolver works correctly?
* Focusing on make sure that it actually provides improved DNS performance for internet users?
* Handles an very large number of record requests/s?
* Saves a few GB of ram per server?
There are tradeoffs to consider. RAM is cheap, even at today's prices RAM is not the most expensive thing that can go wrong in such a scenario. Having the responses be slow or incorrect is a far more expensive problem. A good engineer would pick a simple data structure that has the right shape but might not be optimal in footprint to focus on correctness and response time. The few extra GBs of RAM per server can be dealt with later.
When building things at scale you want to make sure it works correctly, fails correctly, and does the thing quickly before worrying about reducing resource consumption. I've never seen a project fail on Vec<T> vs Box<[T]> memory differeneces, or even on a few GBs of RAM usage per instance. I have seen them fail on "one wierd corner case of correctness" though, and on poorly thought through failure modes.
Doesn't this also inform you that your cache will be very large, so you shouldn't use growable structures with slack space when cache entries won't grow; slop space reduces the size of your cache. And also that the query volume will be high so the cached data should require as little work as possible before returning data; spending time marshalling response data on every cache hit increases response time and decreases capacity.
* unbounded growth of the cache and properly invalidating after TTL expires (a few GBs of slop is nothing on a server with 64 or more GBs of ram, unbounded growth is a problem).
* making sure the DNS implementation works correctly on both the serving side and recursive resolution side.
* What strategy is best for deduping recursive requests across machines (if something a few miliseconds away has a live result, why do a full lookup taking hundreds or thousands of milliseconds?). This potentially improves RAM usage across the datacenter too from not having a given record on dozens (or more) machines' local cache. I don't know exactly how they do it, but naively I'd look at some sort of DHT shaped solution to look for records in peers within the datacenter. Or maybe some sort of tiered caching with the upper tier being sharded on domain name or the like.
* The biggest performance gains cloudflare can provide in Web and DNS cache come from a cache hit. This is on the order of 10s or 100s of ms due to having a big cache and short distance to the requesting machine. A suboptimal lookup algorithm that is a few microseconds slower in local compute and ram access is just not as important as the other concerns for dedup and cache sharing. That's not to say it's unimportant, just that it's not the top priority when you're trying to deliver this much larger performance gains from other aspects of the system. Thats why they are getting to it several years after release.
Cloudflare writes a lot about distributed systems solutions to various problems. They likely don't think as hard about single machine performance as much as whole datacenter performance when approaching problems.
Keep in mind that the per-server cost of the whole program pre-optimization seems to be about 10GB (from the graph in the post). IME that's not bad for a big busy caching service.
Using twice as much ram per cache entry makes the cache half as large, assuming your cache is bounded by ram, unless the queried, unexpired result set is less than the ram budget (which I would tend to doubt... lots of randomized queries out there; maybe I'm wrong if the cache size dropped).
When you're storing billions of records, it makes sense to spend a few minutes to consider how they're used and make a good choice about how to store them.
When you're getting a cache hit tons of times per second, it makes sense to consider every step and which ones don't need to happen every time. You have to consider every step while you're pursing correctness anyway, so might as well have the performance lens active too.
I'm not asking for heroic optimization: I didn't ask for vectorized stuff or kernel/nic offloading or kernel bypass networking... Just you have to use some data structures, you might as well not use ones that are expensive for features you don't need; and you have to store something in your cache, you may as well store something that requires less munging on the way out.
If this were a small local cache, that didn't want to use something already existing like unbound for some reason then yeah, data structures don't make a huge difference, extra marshalling doesn't make a huge difference, just don't reimplement all the CVEs that BIND had in the 90s. But if you're going to allocate 100 TB of ram, make it count.
Another interesting thing that happens is you don't necessarily know what form your actual optimizations will need to take. Later when your systems grow you discover the suboptimal parts you hadn't optimized for.
Very early on at Cloudflare I worked on part of the DNS infrastructure that took DNS records from the UI and got them in a state for actual authoritative serving. The system had been constructed anticipating Cloudflare having millions of customers with unique domains, but it had not been constructed for a single customer with a single domain with millions of records. This caused a periodic slow down in DNS record updating while the system churned on that one customer.
In a different job I worked on a piece of optimization software that needed to keep track of "node" A is reachable from node "B". This had been implemented as a matrix (literally a malloced NxN matrix of ints storing 0 or 1) which worked really well for small systems. But you'd be out of memory really fast on a large project. I replaced the matrix with a hash table and all was good because the matrix was actually really sparse.
With a rather short prompt, claude/codex will take your code, write a harness, profile it, build experiments, profile those, and give some pretty solid advice which one to pick. Then integrate the changes. It's the kind of goal-directed, bite-sized job that LLMs excel at. Extremely low-commitment.
Except for the whole "making changes in production at scale" problem, of course.
The “evil” of premature optimization is that it’s a misapplication of priority. If I have an acute medical problem that needs attention, it’s not the right time to talk about chloresterol and statins, get my broken leg set.
There’s always a tension between engineering management who needs to deliver a solution to the business and engineers who want to deliver a beautiful object.
Because anyone willing to come in just to design your cache format is going to expect payment that is many multiples more than the engineers you already cannot afford? Long-term employees cost less, which brings them closer to being affordable, but you have to be able to keep them busy for long periods of time to realize that reduction in cost. A engineer who doesn't understand your codebase isn't going to be useful for very long.