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I would argue that once the dust settled post-Windows 8 with Windows 10 a full decade ago, the touch screen has been the opposite of what you’ve described for Windows systems. It absolutely is a harmless feature that you can ignore. There’s no reason not to have one.

Same goes for Linux. My CachyOS install on my Framework 13 Pro has a touch screen. There’s literally no downside for me having it. I don’t have to use it if I don’t want to. But if I want to scroll a website or scrub a video the option is there.

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I don't think you can say that. Windows 10+ has a tablet mode that is completely detached from desktop mode, and it's a global toggle. Switching on tablet mode brings full-screen, upscaled, simplified explorer and settings, and switches off the classic desktop launcher with paper bin, shortcuts, etc. in favor of a larger "Start"-type menu launcher. What deeper and experimental integration there was in Windows 8 had just been removed as it became clear MS couldn't quite sell into the iPad/Android tablet market or compete in terms of power management. After stripping most of Windows 8 innovations, what remains is a touch keyboard, touch mouse emulation, and a few affordances in explorer to make tablets not outright terrible, with the target audience education and mbas interested in mobile powerpoint and web/mail.
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Windows 10 had a tablet mode. Windows 11 does not - it just appropriately scales up the padding and size of some UI controls to make them easier to tap.
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I’m failing to see where there’s some kind of downside here. What you describe doesn’t really sound like a bad experience.
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You cant figure out how those kinds of requirements might influence or curtail development in the non touch parts of the system?

We saw the same thing happen with mobile first on websites.

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The introduction of the mouse led to developers paying less attention to keyboard shortcuts and function keys, but I don’t see anyone seriously saying computers should not have mice.

Or for that matter, that adding support for game controllers (something that has actually happened with Linux desktops) would led to curtailed development of non-controller parts.

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Have you found some kind of performance or other detriment of the mere support of touch screens or is this just theoretical?
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It's a fine experience. It's not what Apple is doing though. Apple is doing the half way experience that will leave all unhappy.
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Wow I sure am excited about the future of touch screen Macs! /s
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I made this point below, but Windows 10 still doesn't have the display-real-estate efficiency of Windows 7. Windows 10 wastes all kind of screen space on large, flat surfaces that a non-touch-screen user will never use. Windows 7 wasn't as pretty as Windows 10, but it was better at displaying information.

So actually, you are harmed by this decision every day you use a Windows 10/11 laptop. You live with this every day. You just don't know what you're missing.

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Let's try to imagine a situation when Win10+ UI has "the same display-real-estate efficiency of Windows 7".

Would it change anyhthing? No. Because developers of the programs what are not part of Windows aren't keen on keeping "the same efficiency". Audacity 4, Thunderbird are good examples of a bad interface - and they did it disregarding the OS UI.

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I've been using Thunderbird since I don't even remember when and I never noticed that it's got a bad interface, unless when they broke manually sorting folders and fixed it years later. It's got the UI that a mail client has to have. GMail does have a bad UI. Sometimes I don't understand where a message ends and where a message starts. Luckily I don't have to use it.
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You make a good point. Windows 10 course corrected fairly heavily from Windows 8. The tablet mode was there but you could ignore it pretty easily.

However, I still feel like Apple is in their Microsoft era where they're making some of the same mistakes Microsoft have made in the past 20 years.

Aero -> Liquid Glass

Ads in the OS -> Ads in core applications

Fullscreen ads for Microsoft services in the OS -> banner ads for Apple services in the OS

Dark patterns for Windows 11 upgrades -> Dark patterns for macOS 26 upgrades

Windows Mixed Reality -> Vision Pro

I could also say Surface Duo -> iPhone Duo but at this time it's too early to tell. I also think that a touchscreen Mac is a mistake. Not because it's something Microsoft already did but because the reason a MacBook does not need a touchscreen is because Apple has best-in-class trackpads.

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The obvious downside is that all the UI elements are unnecessarily big for all the people not using touch.
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Not anymore, a lot of apps (from browsers to the system UI) adapt to whether you have a touch screen and whether you use it. For example, Windows Explorer and Edge (and Chrome) still use (relatively-)compact widgets on touchscreen-less computers.
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unless i misunderstand the implication as to their behavior on touchscreenful computers, this would seem to poorly address the concern upthread of explicitly expecting the touchscreen hardware, and thus the concomitant software annoyances, to become effectively unavoidable
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Are you making this point from the context where you’ve never tried a touch screen computer?

This isn’t an unimplemented theory. You can head over to Best Buy right now and see what it’s like to use a touch screen laptop.

I feel like all this debate is taking place in an odd vacuum where a lot of us are talking about a bunch of potential problems with having a touch screen on a computer and all these problems are already resolved.

Maybe it’s similar to the whole iPhone duo thing where Apple users are just discovering all the caveats of a foldable phone, but we’ve already gone over all of it with competitors.

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> It absolutely is a harmless feature that you can ignore. There’s no reason not to have one

what i've learning developing and creating products over the years is that harmless features tend to be the ones that cause the most problems. for ex, now you have to add touchscreen code to the OS vs previously not having it at all. and this code or feature we will support for the rest of the lifetime of that product.

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While I agree with you in many cases in concept, I think it's also possible to erroneously avoid features by being too afraid of this.

In the case of touch screens, it hasn't caused a lasting problem in Windows or Linux.

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I turn it off in the bios.

1. Takes extra battery 2. I’m not touching my screen regardless. It gets dirty enough

My last three or four laptops, which never even booted Windows, have had disabled touchscreens

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This is like saying you take the battery out of your Casio wristwatch at night to conserve battery.
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The UI is worse, which is the GP’s claim, and you don’t address that at all?
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The way you describe it, this release amounts to an extremely large and expensive Touch Bar.
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I agree. KDE is by far the best desktop environment for Linux laptops with touchscreens.
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I was expecting there to be more like a ‘studio mode’ where you can fold it over to make it a screen interface that has some kind of bigger iPad style Ui. Where you could also use a stylus.

Basically a product for the people currently carrying around a MacBook Pro and an iPad Pro.

Just touch on a laptop screen makes no sense. I’ve never felt the need to do this.

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The touch screen mac and iphone duo feel like ideas Apple has rejected for so long because they suck, but consumers keep asking for it. Seems they finally relented and released them, and people can learn it's simply bad.
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Maybe it comes and goes like the Touch Bar (yeah I know, quite unlikely, but one can dream) ;)
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I liked the idea, and found it useful (but I have smaller fingers). The biggest issue was how buggy it was, especially in earlier laptops. If it doesn't respond (common bug), then you now have no function keys, screen brightness keys, etc.
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I have a MBP M1 which has been my main laptop since it came out. I never really understood why so many people complained about the Touch Bar. In fact, I will kind of miss the Touch Bar when I eventually replace the MBP M1 with something else a few more years down the line.
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The main complaint was not about the touchbar itself, but about removal of F-keys to accommodate it.
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It not only removed the F-keys, but it was not as responsive as a keyboard and a misplaced finger did something you may not want. Personally I HATED the thing.
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The first iteration of the touch bar didn't have a physical escape key. I'm not even a VI user but that was my main complaint. I barely use function keys so I was ok with them being virtual (they showed up when I was in the terminal). But I did love adding a custom screenshot button to it and I loved the way the volume and brightness controls worked.
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Judging by the Apple marketing page, touch is used for (1) scroll; (2) zoom; (3) draw. I hope that’s all the ways touch can be used. It’s a bad idea to expect touch to be used instead of the cursor to click on buttons.
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Do you really think Apple would make a product advertising a touch screen where you aren't able to actually touch buttons on the screen?

The marketing material shows a person playing a virtual piano with their fingers..

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My work laptop has a touch screen, I only ever remember about that when it gets too dusty and I start to wipe it.
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I think this can easily be seen in the introduction of windows into iPad OS. I hate when the wrong motion creates a window from what I was working with. And this is on the 11" pro.
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Introducing features nobody asked for with clever bs gestures, then forcing the user to undo their effect using obscure keyboard sequences or settings one has to lookup on the web is absolutely terrible UI, and something that would've never passed under Jobs' reign. It's not just the iPad windows misfeature, Mac OS' full screen mode has that problem as well. Whoever is responsible for that should seriously consider their career choices. There are PLENTY ergonomic problems to take care of, such as the error-prone keyboard entry on iOS, the Finder not showing full paths in Info details, broken window focus management (clicking a window tops ALL windows of the app), Spotlight, Expose refactored into uselessness (is it even there still?), the list goes on.
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You can turn that off, by the way. Settings -> Multitasking and Gestures -> select Full Screen Apps. Just turns all that off. I honestly don't mind it on my Air but on the Mini is just fucking useless as a feature so I know this lol
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I've been an Apple die hard ever since the OG iMac (still love those things). Never before have I so strongly felt the pull to Linux.
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I don't think it's quite that bad, but I’m already in the habit of swatting the hands of people who point too closely at things on my laptop screen with their greasy fingers. gtfo
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100% agree We should assume that new engineering leadership that came - it was too late. Let’s pray that MacBook pro team will leave apple sooner or later to build alternative laptop. This touchscreen seems to be bifurcation point with no return. I hope we also get alternative for M-class cpu, this might be the biggest dealbreaker
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I mean, if this is what you've been waiting for forever and it changes your life for the better, then congrats. But I think this will wind up being a huge net-negative for most Mac users as macOS is made to look and feel more and more like iPadOS.
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And Mac OS is built adjacent to iOS which shares most themes and design principles. The ecosystem is already designed around touch.
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ecosystem != UI

Buttons sized to be hit by your physical thumb and buttons sized to be hit by a tiny high-precision cursor are very different things.

I am sitting on a macbook pro with the vertical tab pane open in chrome, with 12 tabs. The outer joint of my thumb covers the entire list, in both width and height. A touch-friendly version of that would be humongous in comparison.

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I agree with the doomerism, and I expect the end goal would be merging MacOS UI with iPadOS. so the Mac will be an iPad with a keyboard. Clumsy , low-resolution controls that depend on clumsy touch experiences instead of lightning fast keyboard shortcuts.

The end result will be akin to taking keyboards away from Platinum league top tier Korean pro RTS players. 500+ operations per minute down to 10

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It’s funny how disconnected macOS users are from reality when it comes to laptop touch screens.

That just hasn’t happened with Windows touch screens.

Yes, Microsoft did fuck around and find out with Windows 8, but by the time Windows 10 landed an entire decade ago, this whole issue has been completely settled. That’s right, your Windows/Linux user friends have been using touchscreens (or no touch screens) without issue for a decade. No UX sky has fallen in this regard.

There’s absolutely zero downside to having a touch screen on Windows and you also absolutely don’t need a touch screen to use it.

I’m using a touch screen on my Linux laptop right now and it’s great. I don’t have to use it. The screen being touch didn’t cost me extra money. It’s just there if I want it.

The Apple camp seems to believe that every technology included with a product must have some kind of intentional holistic value. Apple removed the USB-A port because USB-C is the future. Apple removed the escape key and the function keys because the Touch Bar would replace it.

But the truth of the matter is, sometimes the option to just include both isn’t some kind of magical barrier that Apple can’t do.

You go out and buy a ThinkPad X9 15p and it has 3x thunderbolt, HDMI, SD card, and USB-A. Why doesn’t a MacBook Pro include USB-A? Well, remember, USB-A is the past! It’s legacy!

But the thing about it being unnecessary doesn’t change the fact that it remains trivially expensive to include, and it comes in handy for a bunch of peripherals that aren’t even that old.

So, I think this is why everyone assumes that Apple is going to destroy the OS because of some new thing they add to the hardware. Because the Apple cult is all about the mythical finely crafted experience. If you don’t do things the Apple way you’re holding it wrong. but in Microsoft/Linux-land, they don’t really care. Linux is fully free, and Microsoft knows their demographic net is too wide and their marketshare is too high that they can’t dictate form factor, choice of peripherals, etc. Their whole philosophy is that Windows is suitable for anything and everything.

The Apple culture can’t contemplate a technology company just including an extra option for users with no specific intended use case. PC manufacturers include a touch screen because, screw it, it only costs a few cents extra and maybe someone might like it, software integration be damned/that’s not our problem.

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Windows 10 reversed a lot of the controversial UI changes from Windows 8, but the mouse/keyboard UX was still largely a regression from Windows 7 due to the introduction of giant padding regions on any new/redesigned software so people could use their fingers. Maybe people haven't noticed this as much because the economics have worked out such that most software is now designed for web/mobile first, so having giant padding regions on desktop is more normal.

Macs had managed to avoid this degradation for a while because they didn't have touchscreens, but Apple put in the giant finger-friendly padding regions as part of the UI changes in Tahoe, which got a lot of negative feedback. Now that they're introducing touchscreen laptops, it's unlikely that they'll ever fully revert those changes since it will make the touch experience worse.

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I really strongly disagree. I've been using Windows since the 2.x 286/386 days. Windows 10 and 11 are still less functional, UI-wise, than Windows 7 was. They're still not capable of the information-density that Windows 7 was. They still have larger and less space-efficient widgets than Windows 7 did.

We forget this because Windows 7 was ugly and Windows 10 and 11 are nicer looking and that feels like progress, somehow. But you don't get nearly the functional information density with Windows 11 that you did with 7.

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I’m confused, this isn’t true at all, and Windows 11 has full display scaling adjustment. Make the whole thing smaller if you want to.

The taskbar icons are the exact same size. The tray icons are the exact same size. I’m struggling to figure out what’s different.

I personally use KDE which you can fully customize in terms of sizing, it’s great on a touch screen.

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The problem isn't "make whole thing smaller". The problem is information density and controls. Windows wastes large areas of screen on huge white empty spaces, showing significantly less info in 100x more display area than win 95
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Microsoft produces an OS. Linux is an OS. When a hardware partner of Microsoft wants to introduce touchscreen laptops Microsoft has to support them. Is it realistic that Microsoft tells them to pound sand and the partner ships the hardware with Linux? No. Whereas Apple is supposed to have an overarching design team. Someone that currently occupies the role Jony Ive occupied should have the power to tell the hardware team not to ship touchscreens in Macs.
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One difference is that Apple has always considered it their job and divine right to tell you how to use your computer, where Windows a d Linux never have.
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best analysis of this I have seen.
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the concern rests on the likely trajectory for the mac laptop.

Windows laptops never expected tough screen adoption to hit 90% and still touch degraded the experience.

The worry here is that with Apple's e2e design control over the Mac, that this pivot will mean our MacOS UX will be removed in lieu of a more iPad-like experience.

Just look at other developer-friendly features like unlocked bootloaders, background jobs, unsigned software that Apple has removed from their hardware .

So this is a big deal and significant. It's different than you running Linux on your Windows laptop because the touch experience there never had a chance to push out the traditional UX.

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I disagree. One of the key differentiators is that technology is being introduced in the highest cost, highest capability sku in their product lineup. This laptop costs more than my first car, although I’m old :)

What Microsoft introduced touch surfaces, they came out of the train wreck of Longhorn and they were under the belief that they could push windows down to phones. Reality was that they pushed touch surfaces in a barbell distribution… ultra high end and ultra low end. Mostly low end as screen costs were super high.

With Apple, look at the pencil and the iPad. They’ve had a lot of fits and starts, but the Apple Pencil didn’t fundamentally change the iPad, but it did open the door for a very high value use cases for things like procreate.

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Hahahaha have you even used macOS starting with tahoe? the liquid glass ui was made for touch! it is literally the antithesis of mouse-driven design. the buttons are large and circular, with huge corner radii. huge gaps in between them as well.
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Perhaps it is with a heavy dose of copium that I say: I hope the extremely tentative development and release of this product (after having been on the record as fervently against touchscreen laptops), along with the eye-watering price point indicates that this isn't being viewed as the future of the MacOS experience. I hope this remains framed as a true pro-focused experience that unlocks specific apps without greatly impacting the central MacOS design philosophy.
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> along with the eye-watering price point

I mean the entry level price for this is $2,899, "only" $400 more than the comparable non-touch MBP.

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Probably not because at the end of the day the employees and engineers at Apple have to use the Mac and macOS to write software so there's a concrete floor that they can't break through in terms of usability. They may make some mistakes or something but the OS has basically been the same thing for like 20 years. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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