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There are ads on the DC Metro right now that advertise one of these as a source of truth for election polling. The poster says something like "98% accuracy" and in super fine print, specifies something like "within 2 hours of polls closing" and other normal fine print stuff.

To me it's absolutely crazy that the "gamble on anything" apps are being advertised as some kind of polling software. I've already seen at least one race called into question because the gamblers bet on the wrong pony.

They're pure corruption engines designed for insider betting. The top brass of these companies need to be made example of.

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I've seen those and they are crazy! Many elections are decided by the primary anyway, and then of course exit polls are going to be basically accurate 2 hours before the election. It's not even that fine print, I think they may actually just be stupid.
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this is an answerable question and these markets are generally well calibrated (including on election outcomes), they have a good brier score.

i would not premise an anti-prediction market argument on their accuracy being bad, you are building on shaky foundations. the better argument is the paternalist protecting stupid people from themselves imo.

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> They're pure corruption engines designed for insider betting. The top brass of these companies need to be made example of.

is there any surprise then that Trumps are on the boards of both?

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The LDS church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), which is also based in Utah has provided explicit guidance against participation in Kalshi and Polymarket as gambling.

Here is their official stance on gambling: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...

I am not sure how much, if any, impact or influence this has had on Utah law.

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I thought it worth posting the stance for those not willing to click

... Gambling is motivated by a desire to get something for nothing. This desire is spiritually destructive. It leads participants away from the Savior’s teachings of love and service and toward the selfishness of the adversary. It undermines the virtues of work and thrift and the desire to give honest effort in all we do.

Those who participate in gambling soon discover the deception in the idea that they can give little or nothing and receive something of value in return. They find that they give up large amounts of money, their own honor, and the respect of family members and friends. Deceived and addicted, they often gamble with funds they should use for other purposes, such as meeting the basic needs of their families. Gamblers sometimes become so enslaved and so desperate to pay gambling debts that they turn to stealing, giving up their own good name.

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They absolutely have been the main force behind the timing of this push. It was the main topic of General Conference a few weeks ago and one of the most eyebrow-raising articulations of official church policy.

Given the way that the church has explicitly encouraged state legislators to shoot down recent laws it's not surprising to think they'd be pushing for this.

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To be clear, it was one talk out of ~30, not the main topic. But the talk (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference...) was unusually direct and stood out among the more common, often repeated topics like faith, temples, etc.
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> Given the way that the church has explicitly encouraged state legislators to shoot down recent laws it's not surprising to think they'd be pushing for this.

And the way they've influenced voters in Idaho and Arizona recently.

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Also "Utah is one of only two states where gambling is also prohibited under the state constitution"
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Funnily enough, Hawaii is the other one. Three more states also do not have lotteries.
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Washington State constitution, article 2, section 24 originally banned lotteries too:

https://leg.wa.gov/state-laws-and-rules/washington-state-con...

>SECTION 24. LOTTERIES AND DIVORCE

>The legislature shall never grant any divorce. Lotteries shall be prohibited except as specifically authorized upon the affirmative vote of sixty percent of the members of each house of the legislature or, notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, by referendum or initiative approved by a sixty percent affirmative vote of the electors voting thereon. [AMENDMENT 56, 1971 Senate Joint Resolution No. 5, p 1828. Approved November 7, 1972.]

>NOTES: Original text — Art. 2 Section 24 LOTTERIES AND DIVORCE — The legislature shall never authorize any lottery or grant any divorce.

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Hm, I could get behind that in California
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You get organized crime fillin.
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Ehh I wouldn't try to appeal too much to what the LDS church thinks about this. They require members to give 10% of their annual income to the church, while already having close to $300 billion in the bank.

Everyone knows the state of Utah is largely run by the church.

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> Everyone knows the state of Utah is largely run by the church.

Surprisingly few people know this ime. It's worth pointing out as one of the few areas [0] where the church has as much pull as its members think it does.

While I wouldn't look to the church as a bastion of morality for So Many Reasons, it's worth looking at a hard example of how it is able to manipulate politics in Utah, and by extension nationwide.

[0] Other areas worth being aware of are Idaho and parts of Arizona of course.

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If the state of utah is run by the church, then presumably if the church wants to ban kalshi, it's going to matter.
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The point isn't to appeal, right? Just speculate on whether the church is the reason for this.
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I don’t see the clear difference between something like Kalshi and, say, Robinhood. I do see a clear difference between Kalshi and casinos or sports gambling sites like Fan Duel; in the latter, your counterparty is the institution itself. This creates a lot of perverse incentives on the part of sports gambling sites to maintain their edge, such as banning bettors that are too good at playing the odds. Kalshi, on the other hand, is never your counterparty in any transaction.

Now, Robinhood is a brokerage, regulated by FINRA, and has been fined for misbehavior in the past. So I am more than willing to believe that there is daylight here that I’m not seeing. But anything that lets you speculate attracts a certain clientele, and I think the most important distinction is whether or not the platform itself is an interested party.

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If Kalshi is not a gambling operation then it is an unregulated futures market, which is still illegal. There are perverse incentives in futures markets too, which is why they are regulated.

Also speculators serve an important purpose: hedging strategies require speculators on the other side. It is not just a "certain clientele," there are people who run profitable businesses on speculation (it amounts to collecting insurance premiums from people who want hedges).

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You're posting this all over the site but Kalshi is very clearly a licensed futures market regulated by the CFTC
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How is that at all clear? They are likely subject to CFTC regulations but there are a lot of questions about whether or not they are in compliance.
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Describing an organization with a license from the CFTC as an "unregulated futures market" is just flat wrong, I'm not really sure why you're motte-baileying here.
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They offer contracts that are almost certainly outside the scope of regulation, an appeals court has already ruled that some of their contracts are indeed subject to state laws and not CFTC regulation, and they are continuing to push the envelope. How is it wrong to call them an unregulated market under the circumstances?
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Because they are subject to a regulator and hold a license from a regulator.
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If the differentiating factor is just who you’re betting against, how are Kalshi et al any different from online poker? It’s still gambling, the house just takes a rake
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Because you can easily collude and cheat at poker so it needs to be heavily regulated or outright illegal to prevent theft. You can't really cheat at prediction markets, unless you have insider information which they can litigate after the fact.
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Surely you’re being facetious, insider trading is obviously a huge problem that is rarely enforced and we’ve already seen instances of people actively influencing events or using false information to fake the result of a bet
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> You can't really cheat at prediction markets

Lots of folks gripe about how Kalshi adjudicates contracts.

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Besides the brokerage being regulated, stock markets are regulated.
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basically, does the government have its thumb on the scale makes it legal. Gambling is so bad and illegal, except when the pennsylvania lottery does it. Alcohol, bad and illegal, except when the state monopoly sells it.
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That's such a poor argument. Illegal building is bad because it's illegal; illegal gambling is bad because it's illegal. This is just how laws work. Heck, in the US even homicide is bad because it's illegal, when you consider that there is a legal version of it.
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There are very good reasons that gambling and financial markets are regulated.
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Yep. Hope they kill Kalshi.
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Devices that broadcast wifi illegal except when the FCC says so. Damn government with their thumb on the scales.
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Robinhood is regulated under the SEC and other regulatory bodies and keeps "paper trails" of the trades.
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and Kalshi is regulated on the CFTC as it is not an securities market that the SEC regulates.
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It's really the worst of both combined. There is ample gambling like options and behavior on Kalshi

&&

policy makers, assistants, journalists, and the like are insider trading - and the president of the united states is intentionally market manipulating for profit

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A week ago if you dared to say anything critical of polymarket you would be drowned out in replies talking about the "wonderful societal benefits" of gambling on daily life and how it "informs decision making" and helps the "common people".
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51% or more of social media is automated.

Bots Rule Everything Around Me BREAM dollar dollar bill yall.

like, of course the gambling halls drop big money on online marketing

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I liked it for political races as an alternative to polls. Was terrible for several other things. 99% of it was really just sports betting, which I can't see being a good thing.
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The genie's way out of the bottle with sports betting. Nonstop ads, branding tie-ins, billboards, podcast ads, on and on.

And it's terrible and going to destroy sports.

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We don't need more financial incentive to influence the outcome of elections, there's already enough as it is.
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> I liked it for political races as an alternative to polls.

With enough funds, smaller political races can be gamed.

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Yeah that too, so only the big ones. Obviously the law can't distinguish since it's all the same kind of gambling.
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you must be from an alternate timeline
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What in the revisionist history? Polymarket has been getting shit on here since it debuted.
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Not really. I can recall countless threads where everyone said that this improves information availability. Do you want me to go through my post history to find them?
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