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I am a simple man. When I see people buy devices with Zigbee, Z-Wave, or other fully local protocols, I nod. When I see people reward vendors that lock in with their money, I shake.
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Counterpoint: many vendors with lock-in use the price of the subscription and ads they show you to subsidize the device itself.

By buying the device and then breaking the lock-in, one does more harm to the anti-consumer device manufacturer than had they done nothing at all.

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It's a fan, filter, and a case with a small PCB + sensors. They are absolutely selling these at a good profit margin.
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> Counterpoint: many vendors with lock-in use the price of the subscription and ads they show you to subsidize the device itself.

Vendors want to have their cake and eat it. They are no longer happy with a one-time sale, they want a continuous revenue stream. I have absolutely no qualms about buying "subsidized" devices and liberating them. I am not going to pay five times the price of a "smart TV" for a commercial display with worse specs when I can buy the consumer version and not connect it to the Internet or root it.

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This isn't quite true. They are nearly always using subscriptions and ads to increase their profit margin. Enabling them to go from a low-margin hardware business into a high margin software service business. Even high-end brands like Wolf/ Sub-zero are low margin compared to a software services company. That is why every company is shifting their portfolio to this subscription/ ad model and not leaving any "unconnected" device models available in their line ups.

I think this is bad for customers. If every vendor does this, and regulators don't set regulations that balance the interests of companies with the interests of customers, than the only option people have are things like this.

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> Counterpoint: many vendors with lock-in use the price of the subscription and ads they show you to subsidize the device itself.

What exactly is the subsidy here?

Is it that they plan to meet a bulk of their profit target after the sale, instead of frontloading the profit. The subsidy can be considered a 1000 dollars on a 200 dollar device if their target price is 1200 dollars.

It is only really subsidized if the device is actually sold below cost of BOM & essential software needed minus bloat. I'm skeptical that they are giving away hardware below cost based on potential profits.

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They're not giving away the hardware. They're giving away a couple points of margin and making up for that after.

And with Amazon and other online shopping, consumer price sensitivity, and the ability to act on it, pressure is at an all-time high. There's a huge race to the bottom for all sorts of consumer goods.

Let's say total cost of manufacturing and distribution and service for the manufacturer is $50. Given two functionally identical products: if you were a layperson consumer, would you buy the product that costs 80 or would you buy the product that costs 100?

If the manufacturer can extract $20 of ad revenue from you, and you make the cheaper purchase up front, then it's win/win for the consumer (spent less), and the manufacturer (able to offer a lower price option and thus hopefully higher sales).

Well, "win/win" in a sense, I suppose.

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But what if the desire is not to harm some obnoxious company, but instead to reduce their influence in the market? But I agree generally, free any locked down device you happen to find yourself possessing.
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> But what if the desire is not to harm some obnoxious company, but instead to reduce their influence in the market?

I don't see the difference. How would you reduce their influence without harming them?

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I was challenging the assertion that buying and freeing is better than not engaging at all. I think the better comment would have been to indicate there is not likely a general rule. Devils and details and all that.
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It depends on the degree to which the hardware is subsidized, if at all.
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I suppose we should also account for the fact that it takes resources away from a less obnoxious competitor, assuming one exists.
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I want everyone, everywhere, to do this to TV manufacturers. Root them. Destroy their “smart” software.

There is no competition in the space anymore. Not on that. You either get crudded-up devices or a panel that doesn’t have the fundamental AV capabilities required of a living room TV.

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Subsidizing products does not mean the consumer spends less.

Who pays for those ads/tracking/etc... companies that want to sell stuff to the consumer. Congratulations, subsidization just introduced more middlemen which extract more profit from the consumer.

The simpler things can be, the cheaper things can be.

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The goal isn't to pay minimal money. If that was the goal, you strap an air filter to a box fan and use an esp32 to turn the power on and off. Or a solid state relay if you want to get fancy with different power levels.

The goal is to do harm to anti-consumer companies. Buying their (subsidized) hardware, and then breaking their lock-in so you and others aren't shown ads or forced to pay useless subscriptions, harms the company.

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By buying the device and then breaking the lock-in, one does more harm to the anti-consumer device manufacturer than had they done nothing at all.

Only if you can guarantee that the vendor is going to remain in business forever, and provide service and support for the product forever.

Neither of those things happen. Ever.

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That doesn't make sense, I don't think you understand what I said.

If the manufacturer subsidizes the hardware purchase, that loss is realized at hardware purchase time.

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I don't believe that they subsidize hardware anymore.

Years ago, this was true. But today, selling your personal information isn't a loss leader. It's additional profit on top of the profit from the product.

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I'm a simple man. I bought air purifier that can use cloud, but never bothered to connect it. I use touch control.
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It's not always that simple. I have a bunch of devices in my home that have WiFi IoT: bedroom AC, dehumidifier, refrigerator, and washer/dryer. I bought all of them regardless because they work fine without WiFi and I've never connected them. I'd love it if I could connect them to Home Assistant without data leaving my network. Reverse engineering them is on my list of future projects.

In the meantime they continue to function as "dumb" devices just fine.

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I've often though this is part the reason that the Apple IoT space has fewer products than the general market.

Apple's HomeKit allows you to firewall your IoT devices, if you have a Wifi router that supports it.

Since that kind of privacy cuts into the profits of shady IoT companies, they don't support HomeKit.

I'm not interested in trading my privacy for the pithy convenience of moving the dishwasher start button from the machine to my phone.

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I'm not sure that this ability to be firewalled is what keeps Homekit down. Inexpensive Matter devices abound that can also be firewalled from the internet, and never connected to it even once[1].

[1]: Yes, I know. There exists Matter-upgradeable widgets that must be connected to the Internet before becoming usable as Matter devices; send those back. I'm also aware that there's Matter devices that require Internet in order to be useful[2], but every instance I've seen of that is just something that was designed by a moron, imbecile, or idiot; send those back, too. Returns cost these companies money.

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrySwitchBot/comments/1j8ogt8/matte...

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You want a router that will not let those wifi devices reach the internet or contact any other device on your network except allowed devices.

For any device that needs to connect to the internet, you want to be able to use dns and ip block lists at the very least.

These changes are on my todo list. Tvs especially need to be quarantined. They scan your network to datamine and try to report your conversations to the tv manufacturer.

The next step is root the tvs and clean off as much junk as possible.

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Take a look at OpnSense.
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Unfortunately some classes of devices have only those pesky proprietary and closed firmwares. I'm generally with you but nowadays with LLMs it's probably less effort to free up that specific IoT WiFi only device that finding a ZigBee version of it.
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How do you feel about Matter [1]? Asking as someone all in on Home Assistant, open local protocols, and ready to reverse engineer and spend whatever is needed for digital sovereignty, for both myself and the community.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard)

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In my experience, Matter is okay except that it’s built over IP and manufacturers seem to be unable to resist using that juicy IP connection to talk to the Internet.

Thread should not have allowed Internet connectivity by default.

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My Brighter lamps don't connect to the internet. But, the smart features don't work properly, so maybe they're just shot in general.
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(Not the OP, but want to spread awareness, sorry.) The Wikipedia page already lists the greatest disadvantage:

> (..) the ability to commission a finished product into a Matter network in the field mandates certification and membership fees, entailing both one-time, recurring, and per-product costs. This is enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and so-called device attestation certificates.

Matter is designed to necessitate phoning into the internet for certification, which allows all manufacturers to just easily add-in phoning into the internet for telemetry. Furthermore, it does not define exactly which functionality must remain if a device is disconnected from the internet for a long time (assuming the user is trying to avoid sending out telemetry, not even bypassing certification).

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The Matter devices (a smart bulb or a sensor) have no Internet access required by the spec, and no way to send telemetry to the Internet.

It’s the commissioners that check for the certification: your phone or an open source implementation.

And the commissioners can, explicitly by the specification, commission other devices while completely offline.

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> The Matter devices (a smart bulb or a sensor) have no Internet access required by the spec, and no way to send telemetry to the Internet.

That's a little disingenuous... All Matter-over-WiFi devices inherently have Internet access unless you're blocking it through router policy, and most Matter-over-Thread border routers commercially available today give Thread devices Internet access by default if they want it (to avoid this you need to self-host your own OTBR instance).

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Especially "security" cameras.. *shiver*...
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I am a simple man. I don't buy smart devices, mostly. Offline only is completely acceptable.

The connected home was an idealistic dream that has been made perverse by the Zucks and Elons of the world. It is not accessible for normal people and it might never be - at least, not without the blood sacrifice of your privacy.

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That's not true. Zigbee and Zwave are local only, private, and inexpensive. Home Assistant is great free open source software.
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Home Assistant exist
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What I don’t like about Zigbee though is that it is on the Wifi band so every device with wifi antenna can snoop on it. Even assuming the protocol is secure, anyone can infer patterns and devices based on traffic shape. For example, a motion sensor that sends data whenever someone walks by. In the end, nothing beats physical wires in terms of privacy and reliability if I understand correctly.
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> Even assuming the protocol is secure

The other fun thing about them is because they talk Wi-Fi frequencies, if you break into them they can also be reprogrammed to act like a hotspot, or start commanding _other_ devices.

So if you send a drone up the side of an office building to the executives floor, and can break into one lightbulb wirelessly, you can then make that lightbulb break into all the other lightbulbs, until you reach the secluded inner rooms, and you can make that lightbulb listen for Wi-Fi traffic and can pretend to be a hotspot for the targetted executive's laptop. Like in the movies!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322969640_IoT_Goes_...

https://sci-hub.reatk.com/10.1109/MSP.2018.1331033

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Deployed wiring is indeed best. I will say wireless devices are often deployed while their wired counterparts sit there on the to-do list.
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You love to see it!

I (with heavy LLM help) recently R.E. a golf cart motor controller which had a USB interface for programming, but only a crappy proprietary windows application, and it was super satisfying to see it hum attached to Linux.

What would be even more satisfying to see would be companies that were chill about this kind of work, instead of sending[1] legal threats[2] to people doing the work that they should be doing in the first place.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50443824

2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50363968

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I'm with you in theory but why on earth is anyone buying an air purifier that requires cloud connectivity at all?
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In the larger picture, it's because the tech industry started packaging every imaginable piece of hardware as a loss leader for subscription services. That's a big reason why it's really hard to get a high quality dumb TV.

Hopefully, hopefully this new trend can break the cycle of using software to turn things into subscription services that should never be subscription services. I'm terrified that manufactures will respond with hardware encryption and legal maneuvering, but perhaps by then there will be an even larger and thriving ecosystem of open hardware as the ease of setting it up and integrating it with AI accelerates its adoption.

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> That's a big reason why it's really hard to get a high quality dumb TV.

It's also partially the reason that a high quality smart TV is so cheap nowadays

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And why ads appear without permission.
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Sometimes manufacturers bake in the expected revenue from snooping into the price of the device. That can lead to better hardware at cheaper prices, that then you can liberate and use offline.

I used to have a small counter-top dishwasher that relied on proprietary soap cartridges. The dishwasher itself was fairly good and effective, and after hacking the cartridges to allow them to be refilled the overall price was quite acceptable!

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The dishwashero!
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Were soap cartridges were snooping on you, or the dishwasher itself?
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> I used to have a small counter-top dishwasher that relied on proprietary soap cartridges

My god, this is straight out of a Douglas Adams book.

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I don't mind the app functionality of my air purifier. I get a push notification when air quality degrades, and I can see data and charts of air quality over time. I can change the settings remotely, which is nice because I have a small child and keep the "lock" function set for the actual controls.

It's easier to setup and maintain schedules, routines, or more complex functionality.

It's certainly not critical functionality, but it's nice. Same with my laundry machine and dryer sending a push notification when the cycle ends. Unnecessary, but nice.

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> It's easier to setup and maintain schedules, routines, or more complex functionality.

Complex like wanting to hit the "Good night" button in Apple Home and have it turn the purifier to full blast for white noise, the workflow in TFA that wasn't possible with the app experience?

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It's one of those things quite interesting to see the difference in response from one consumer to another. I can't stand the washer/dryer notifications and finally turned them off a few weeks ago. Especially when I'm on the road half the time, why should I care my wife did 8 loads of laundry in a day? When I'm home, the chime is enough to hear from the other room anyway and the notification on the phone usually just backlogs and gives me a load of red badges I need to clear at the end and beginning of every day for notifications I didn't even get because the phone wasn't with me and I changed the laundry anyway.

For an air purifier, I feel like I'd probably want to see outcome-level statistics convincing me it actually matters to lifespan, healthspan, quality of life, something, anything at all, to know and adjust minute-by-minute the exact air quality going through a purifier, or for that matter what the purifier is able to detect even reflects the quality of air elsewhere in a house with a whole lot of air volume not going through that purifier very regularly.

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Anyone want to help create a generic service to do this for any IOT device?

Basically a git repo with instructions that would maybe pull in rea and set all this up.

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How realistic is this with the emuhdra and other certain vulnerabilities now exposed and will be locked down?
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I really can't understand why the hell these manufacturers don't just provide open source firmware. Nobody is buying a Conway purifier for the software and there are no trade secrets there.
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