I would not want to run any code on my machines made by people who think like this. And I'm pro-Rust. Rust is only "more secure" all else being equal. But all else is not equal.
A rewrite necessarily has orders of magnitude more bugs and vulnerabilities than a decades-old well-maintained codebase, so the security argument was only valid for a long-term transition, not a rushed one. And the people downplaying user impact post-rollout, arguing that "this is how we'll surface bugs", and "the old coreutils didn't have proper test cases anyway" are so irresponsible. Users are not lab rats. Maintainers have a moral responsibility to not harm users' systems' reliability (I know that's a minority opinion these days). Their reasoning was flawed, and their values were wrong.
The snap BS wasn't enough to move me since I was largely unaffected once stripping it out, but this might finally convince me to ditch.
I'm used to running experimental software but I wasn't ready for my computer to not boot one day because of uutils. The `-Z` flag for `cp` wasn't implemented in the 9 month old version shipped in Debian at that time so initramfs creation failed...
sudo apt install coreutils-from-gnu
And, yeah, the Unix syscalls are very prone to mistakes like this. For example, Unix's `rename` syscall takes two paths as arguments; you can't rename a file by handle; and so Rust has a `rename` function that takes two paths rather than an associated function on a `File`. Rust exposes path-based APIs where Unix exposes path-based APIs, and file-handle-based APIs where Unix exposes file-handle-based APIs.
So I agree that Rust's stdilb is somewhat mistake prone; not so much because it's being opinionated and "nudg[ing] the developer towards using neat APIs", but because it's so low-level that it's not offering much "safety" in filesystem access over raw syscalls beyond ensuring that you didn't write a buffer overflow.
`openat()` and the other `*at()` syscalls are also raw syscalls, which Rust's stdlib chose not to expose. While I can understand that this may not be straight forward for a cross-platform API, I have to disagree with your statement that Rust's stdlib is mistake prone because it's so low-level. It's more mistake prone than POSIX (in some aspects) because it is missing a whole family of low-level syscalls.
Why can I easily use "*at" functions from Python's stdlib, but not Rust's?
They are much safer against path traversal and symlink attacks.
Working safely with files should not require *const c_char.
This should be fixed .
The parent was asking for access to the C syscall, and C syscalls are unsafe, including in C. You can wrap that syscall in a safe interface if you like, and many have. And to reiterate, I'm all for supporting this pattern in Rust's stdlib itself. But openat itself is a questionable API (I have not yet seen anyone mention that openat2 exists), and if Rust wanted to provide this, it would want to design something distinct.
> Why can I easily use "*at" functions from Python's stdlib, but not Rust's?
I'm not sure you can. The supported pattern appears to involve passing the optional `opener` parameter to `os.open`, but while the example of this shown in the official documentation works on Linux, I just tried it on Windows and it throws a PermissionError exception because AFAIK you can't open directories on Windows.
> If I have to use unsafe just to open a file, I might as well use C.
is a ridiculous exaggeration.
And then there’s renameat(2) which takes two dirfd… and two paths from there, which mostly has all the same issues rename(2) does (and does not even take flags so even O_NOFOLLOW is not available).
I’m not sure what you’d need to make a safe renameat(), maybe a triplet of (dirfd, filefd, name[1]) from the source, (dirfd, name) from the target, and some sort of flag to indicate whether it is allowed to create, overwrite, or both.
As the recent https://blog.sebastianwick.net/posts/how-hard-is-it-to-open-... talks about (just for file but it applies to everything) secure file system interaction is absolutely heinous.
[1]: not path
I can't think of a case this API doesn't cover, but maybe there is one.
And you need to do that because nothing precludes having multiple entries to the same inode in the same directory, so you need to know specifically what the source direntry is, and a direntry is just a name in the directory file.
This can also be a pain on microcontrollers sometimes, but there you're free to pretend you're on Unix if you want to.
Almost all languages/standard libraries pick the latter, and many choose UNIX or Linux as the preferred platform, even though its file system API has flaws we’ve known about for decades (example: using file paths too often) or made decisions back in 1970 we probably wouldn’t make today (examples: making file names sequences of bytes; not having a way to encode file types and, because of that, using heuristics to figure out file types. See https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/file.1.html)
A standard library for files and paths that lacks things like ACLs and locks is weirdly Unixy for a supposedly modern language. Most systems support ACLs now, though Windows uses them a lot more. On the other hand, the lack of file descriptors/handles is weird from all points of view.
Had Windows been an uncommon target, I would've understood this design, but Windows is still the most common PC operating system in the world by a great margin. Not even considering things like "multile filesystem roots" (drive letters) "that happen to not exist on Linux", or "case insensitive paths (Windows/macOS/some Linux systems)" is a mistake for a supposedly generic language, in my opinion.
"This module contains basic methods to manipulate the contents of the local filesystem. All methods in this module represent cross-platform filesystem operations. Extra platform-specific functionality can be found in the extension traits of std::os::$platform."
Following its recommendation, if we look at std::os::windows::fs we see an extension trait for setting Windows-specific flags for WinAPI-specific flags, like dwDesiredAccess, dwShareMode, dwFlagsAndAttributes. I'm not a Windows dev but AFAICT we want an API to set lpSecurityAttributes. I don't see an option for that in std::os::windows::fs, likely complicated by the fact that it's a pointer, so acquiring a valid value for that parameter is more involved than just constructing a bitfield like for the aforementioned parameters. But if you think this should be simple, then please propose adding it to std::os::windows::fs; the Rust stdlib adds new APIs all the time in response to demand. (In the meantime, comprehensive Windows support is generally provided by the de-facto standard winapi crate, which provides access to the raw syscall).
The point of Rust is that you shouldn't have to worry about the biggest, easiest to fall in pitfalls.
I think the author's point of this article, is that a proper file system API should do the same.
We're looking solely at the few things they got wrong, and not the thousands of correct lines around them.
(Actually ideally there's formal verification tools that can accurately test for all of the issues found in this review / audit, like the very timing specific path changes, but that's a codebase on its own)
Cloudflare crashed a chunk of the internet with a rust app a month or so ago, deploying a bad config file iirc.
Rust isn’t a panacea, it’s a programming language. It’s ok that it’s flawed, all languages are.
Less than that actually, considering Rust has its own definition of what "safe" means.
> It isn't possible to create a programing language that doesn't allow bugs to happen
Yes, that’s true. No one doubts this. Except you seem to think that Rust promises no bugs at all? I don’t know where you got this impression from, but it is incorrect.
Rust promises that certain kinds of bugs like use-after-free are much, much less likely. It eliminates some kinds of bugs, not all bugs altogether. It’s possible that you’ve read the claim on kinds of bugs, and misinterpreted it as all bugs.
I’ve had this conversation before, and it usually ends like https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/aaaah
On the other hand, there are too many less-experienced Rust fans who do claim that "Rust" promises this and that any project that does not use Rust is doomed and that any of the existing decades-old software projects should be rewritten in Rust to decrease the chances that they may have bugs.
What is described in TFA is not surprising at all, because it is exactly what has been predicted about this and other similar projects.
Anyone who desires to rewrite in Rust any old project, should certainly do it. It will be at least a good learning experience and whenever an ancient project is rewritten from scratch, the current knowledge should enable the creation of something better than the original.
Nonetheless, the rewriters should never claim that what they have just produced has currently less bugs than the original, because neither they nor Rust can guarantee this, but only a long experience with using the rewritten application.
Such rewritten software packages should remain for years as optional alternatives to the originals. Any aggressive push to substitute the originals immediately is just stupid (and yes, I have seen people trying to promote this).
Moreover, someone who proposes the substitution of something as basic as coreutils, must first present to the world the results of a huge set of correctness tests and performance benchmarks comparing the old package with the new package, before the substitution idea is even put forward.
You’ve constructed a strawman with no basis in reality.
You know what actual Rust fans sound like? They sound like Matthias Endler, who wrote the article we’re discussing. Matthias hosts a popular podcast Rust in Production where talks with people about sharp edges and difficulties they experienced using Rust.
A true Rust advocate like him writes articles titled “Bugs Rust Won’t Catch”.
> Such rewritten software packages should remain for years as optional alternatives to the originals.
This project was started a decade ago. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7882211)
> must first present to the world the results of a huge set of correctness tests and performance benchmarks
Yeah, you can see those in https://github.com/uutils/coreutils. This project has also worked with GNU coreutils maintainers to add more tests over time. Check out the graph where the total number of tests increases over time.
> before the substitution idea is even put forward
I partly agree. But notice that these CVEs come from a thorough security audit paid for by Canonical. Canonical is paying for it because they have a plan to substitute in the immediate future.
Without a plan to substitute it’s hard to advocate for funding. Without funding it’s hard to find and fix these issues. With these issues unfixed it’s hard to plan to substitute.
Chicken and egg problem.
> less bugs
Fewer.
The goal claimed by all these rewrites is the elimination of bugs.
There are plenty of strong arguments to be made against rewriting something in Rust, but this is a pretty weak one.
Exactly what is the controversial take here?
> I don’t think brushing the bad parts off with “most of the code was really good!” is a fair way to look at this.
Nope. this is fine.
> Cloudflare crashed a chunk of the internet with a rust app a month or so ago, deploying a bad config file iirc.
Maybe this?
> Rust isn’t a panacea, it’s a programming language. It’s ok that it’s flawed, all languages are.
Nope, this is fine too.
What many do not accept among the claims of the Rust fans is that rewriting a mature and very big codebase from another language into Rust is likely to reduce the number of bugs of that codebase.
For some buggier codebases, a rewrite in Rust or any other safer language may indeed help, but I agree with the opinion expressed by many other people that in most cases a rewrite from scratch is much more likely to have bugs, regardless in what programming language it is written.
If someone has the time to do it, a rewrite is useful in most cases, but it should be expected that it will take a lot of time after the completion of the project until it will have as few bugs as mature projects.
Whether or not it was wise for Canonical to attempt to then take that codebase and uplift it into Ubuntu is a different story altogether, but one that has no bearing on the motivations of the people behind the original port itself.
You can see an alternative approach with the authors of sudo-rs. Rather than porting all of userspace to Rust for fun, they identified a single component of a particularly security-critical nature (sudo), and then further justified their rewrite by removing legacy features, thereby producing an overall simpler tool with less surface area to attack in the first place. It was not "we're going to rewrite sudo in Rust so it has fewer bugs", it was "we're going to rewrite sudo with the goal of having fewer bugs, and as one subcomponent of that, we're going to use Rust". And of course sudo-rs has had fresh bugs of its own, as any rewrite will. But the mere existence of bugs does not invalidate their hypothesis, which is that a conscientious rewrite of a tool can result in fewer bugs overall.
Similarly, sudo-rs dropping "legacy" features leaves a bad taste in my mind, there are multiple privilege escalation tools that exist (doas being the first that comes to mind), and doing something better and not claiming "sudo" (and rather providing a compat mode ala podman for docker) would to me seem a better long term path than causing more breakage (and as shown by uutils, breakage on "core" utils can very easily lead to security issue).
I personally find uutils lack of care to be concerning because I've been writing (as a very low priority side project) a network utility in rust, and while it not aiming to be a drop in rewrite for anything, I would much rather not attract the same drama.
No, they openly refuse to accept any GPL code.
This kind of melodramatic reaction to rust code is fatiguing, honestly. Rust does not bill itself as some programming panacea or as a bug free language, and neither do any of the people I know using it. That's a strawman that just won't go away.
Rust applies constraints regarding memory use and that nearly eliminates a class of bugs, provided safe usage. And that's compelling to enough people that it warrants migration from other languages that don't focus on memory safety. Bugs introduced during a rewrite aren't notable. It happens, they get fixed, life moves on.
Your argument does not work as a praise for Rust because the bugs in any program are caused by programmer errors, except the very rare cases when there are bugs in the compiler tool chain, which are caused by errors of other programmers.
The bugs in a C or C++ program are also caused by programmer errors, they are not inherent to C/C++. It is rather trivial to write C/C++ carefully, in order to make impossible any access outside bounds, numeric overflow, use-after-free, etc.
The problem is that many programmers are careless, especially when they might be pressed by tight time schedules, so they make some of these mistakes. For the mass production of software, it is good to use more strict programming languages, including Rust, where the compiler catches as many errors as possible, instead of relying on better programmers.
(grandparent comment): "Cloudflare crashed a chunk of the internet with a rust app a month or so ago"
The actual bug had nothing to do with rust, yet rust is specifically brought up here.
(grandparent comment): "Rust isn’t a panacea, it’s a programming language. It’s ok that it’s flawed, all languages are."
No Rust programmer thinks it's a panacea! Rust has never advertised itself this way.
And then, it turned out to not really be any better than exceptions.
Most Rust evangelism is like this. "In Rust you do X and this makes your code have fewer bugs!" Well no it doesn't. Manually propagating exceptions still makes the program crash and requires more typing, and doesn't emit a stack trace.
Shows how good Rust is, that even inexperienced Unix devs can write stuff like this and make almost no mistakes.
From what I understand, "assigned" probably isn't the best way to put it. uutils started off back in 2013 as a way to learn Rust [0] way before the present kerfuffle.
[0]: https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/tree/9653ed81a2fbf393f42...
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/392022/whats-the-best-wa...
The problem is that -DIGIT doubles as both "signal number" and process group. The right way to invoke kill for a process group however would be "kill [OPTS]... -- -PGID".
If they do not like the design mistakes, great, they should set for themselves the goal to write a new operating system together with all base applications, where all these mistakes are corrected.
As long as they have not chosen the second goal, but the first, they are constrained by the existing interfaces and they must use them correctly, no matter how inconvenient that may be.
Anyone who learns English may be frustrated by many design mistakes of English, but they must still use English as it is spoken by the natives, otherwise they will not be understood.
That "perfectly good code" that it sounds like no one should question included "split --line-bytes has a user controlled heap buffer overflow".