WebRTC works as fallback. WebRTC is encrypted and cant be used for much else.
STUN in the otherhand is unencrypted and the protocol itself can be used for DDoS reflection/amplification. I would not be surprised if this is somehow weaponized and/or blocked/analyzed in real time that then breaks the connectivity.
WebRTC clients take that STUN/TURN response and send to peers through out-of-band, through e.g. a lobby server chat mechanism, to set up the connection. This allows NAT table entries to be created as if they are outbound connection at both ends.
You can't make P2P connection with STUN/TURN alone. STUN/TURN is just a tool required for WebRTC.
I don't know you mean by this, but I think you're confused. I have implemented STUN, so I know how it works. I'm pretty sure TURN doesn't reveal an address/port any different from that revealed by STUN, and cannot, because its discovery feature is STUN. (Also, a typical home user has only one internet-facing address, not a dynamic one plus another one.)
Rather, TURN provides a STUN address/port discovery service and a data relay service. The relay is for cases where two peers wishing to connect are both behind difficult NAT, meaning there is no quick and reliable way for them to directly connect even when they have their STUN results. So instead of connecting directly, they communicate through the relay.
If you can make all the STUN servers fail from the perspective of the clients, you could hypothetically force them to use TURN servers that are more centralized and easier to spy on. STUN negotiates pipes n:n. TURN is closer to n:1.
Webrtc traffic is encrypted as it travels through the TURN servers, isn't it? Sure, you get some which-ip-contacted-which-using-what-service metadata, but any active middleman able to mess with STUN traffic already has that.
It could just be that someone's fucked up a setting somewhere. I mean, the reason WebRTC has loads of options for 'interactive connectivity establishment' is because it's common to see users behind NAT, users whose NAT cant be traversed with STUN, IPv6 being broken, UDP getting blocked, TCP ports other than port 443 getting blocked, etc etc.
If a country's ISPs use CGNAT to avoid giving users precious IPv4 addresses, and world events made the ISPs turn the security settings up to 11, STUN just stops working.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STUN
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traversal_Using_Relays_around_...
STUN has mitigations now against being weaponized but it’s still a shit protocol. The fact that neither STUN nor TURN contain any way whatsoever to accomplish any kind of rendezvous without yet another signaling path boggles my mind given how easy it would have been.
Interesting. Can you expound on this a bit? How does ZeroTier do it?
Other than relaying and STUN-like IP info reflection, they're dumb and do very little. They can't see your traffic or other information or even what virtual networks you're on.
Once both sides learn their external info, they communicate via the root to arrange P2P rendezvous. If both have IPv6 they use that, but still do a hole punch due to stateful firewalls. But with V6 it works almost 100% of the time. If one or both have V4, they do more cumbersome V4 hole punch maneuvers.
Our next-gen product, which is still in pre-release and has been shown only to some enterprise customers, is called ZeroTier Quantum. It's called that cause it's built on PQC (pqNoise to be exact) but it's also a full-scale reengineering of the whole system. But it still uses very similar techniques. Everything is in-band. No STUN, TURN, or even DNS dependencies.
Who signed up for what?
These dudes and dudettes playing video games
> what?
Military service
FWIW I don't agree with the comment chain's source, I read "regular people" as "civilians" and don't think there was any nasty connotation meant.
Be careful, HN is a crazy china and leftie and MENA glaze site now.
It's just something so heartwarming of multiple people coming together to describe their symptoms, workarounds and theories of what could be causing it.
Don’t blame Github for getting spammed whenever an issue reaches the front page.
> when the platform was for professionals
SDR is a relay network, and encrypted, so like onionrouting etc.
its well known malicious actors can abuse it by publishing a p2p game and running coms over SDR via that game...
you can imagine that people want to inspect this traffic in these regions..
Why did you leave this part of title out? For clicks?
Nope. Right within the limit.
It doesn't work adding it to the actual title, and the Github issue title is misleading without the context of what the issue is published on, so babuskov is doing us a favor by setting one that's informative.
Shifting to a completely unrelated argument is moving the goalposts because you can't stand to be wrong.
Not that it'd be particularly hard to reword to fit all information. Feel like things are getting unnecessarily agitated ("You've been here long enough to understand", "you can't stand to be wrong", "Bro was never more glad there's anonymity on the internet", etc.) for no real reason.
I agree. But if there is a chance to not immediately draw in the wrong crowd... I prefer if people take it.
Maybe they need a few average devs there to spend time sweeping up behind the paragons that are pushing the envelope into these features existing at all.
Perhaps some of this is contracted, similar to the Linux compat and drivers, but it's still impressive to me, compared to the orgs like Spotify, order of magnitude larger with barely any features at all. (I understand there's legal, huge backend, and I didn't see many bugs over time, but still)
"Steam is bad because it has few employees."
"Steam can afford more employees."
"Adding more employees would make Steam worse."
Good talk.
I kind of hope at least they'll fix such issues permanently before the steam machine release.
I shop on GOG.
I actually wouldn't blame the web roots. Battle.net is also a CEF based launcher and it feels so much more snappy compared to Steam. For some reason Steam just feels really slow.
I wish they offered remote; I'd happily work there doing those sorts of unglamorous bug fixes. High-reliability engineering is my jam.
In fact, the flat org allows a random person to work on a niche bug management doesn’t seem to care about, which wouldn’t be possible if you had a boss breathing down your neck.
`Major P2P issues in Israel and possibly other middle east countries`
Looks like they tracked it to a steam update in March, and there's a workaround for at lest 3 games that involves all players copying steamwebrtc.dll to the game's ./binaries folder.
It takes a non-trivial amount of work to set up a service mesh (and mutual TLS between services), so many k8s clusters end up with unencrypted traffic inside the cluster network.
I feel like configuring wireguard between a group of physical hosts is fairly trivial. After all I do it semi-manually in order to access my LAN when I'm elsewhere and I'm certainly no expert sysadmin.
It's been kept around because they treat their customers ok, but they absolutely exsanguinate their developers.
And their engineering culture is... odd. They hire senior people and then let them all fuck sound aimlessly. Their APIs are terrible, their infrastructure is all over the place, they still have patch Tuesdays. But because they are the landlord that owns every house in town, what are you going to do, not pay rent?
Gabe is out there cruising the world in a billion dollar yacht, eating thousand dollar meals. All that came off the backs of developers who actually make the games.
This is true, but "treat their customers ok" goes a long way. When everybody else severely abuses their customers, the one company that doesn't generates a lot of goodwill.
This is just what you tell yourself to feel comfortable about living as a beneficiary of the empire. From the perspective of those invaded, there is no difference. Do you think in Vietnam they thought "I'm glad it is a democratic nation dropping dropping 7.5 million tons of bombs on us and raping our villagers, it would be so much worse if they were authoritarian!". Do you think in Cuba they think, "I'm glad it is a democratic nation that is blockading our entire economy, condemning us into poverty". Do you think in Iran they think "I am glad it is a democratic nation that assassinated our leader and bombed our school"?
You're allowed to say what you just said in that post without getting taken away at night and your family never talking about you again. Or a drone taking you out while you sleep. Palantir logs all our comments and it would be trivially easy for them if there weren't still some lingering democratic handrails holding them back.
You're also typing on a computer on HN, so you're a "beneficiary of the empire" regardless of where you live. As someone who apparently reads leftist theory you should know to look at the big picture on world-historical questions rather than getting emotional, like the people who say USSR was just as evil as WW2 Germany because it also killed gormillions of people.
Democracy in the US is dying and may not last another generation. It was something that helped imperial workers and limited the power of the ruling elite, like unions. Unions, like democracy as a whole, are dying. Unions were also corrupt and complicit in imperialist war crimes during the Cold war. Unions in the West have always been connected to labor aristocracy and imperialism. That said, unions as a whole are still a good thing. We should still mourn the decline of labor unions and miss the days when they kept the elite in check and allowed so many working people to live a decent life.
Steam is also likely to become an ordinary ripoff company one day soon. I will miss this historical aberration among pure ripoff services. Just like I will miss being able to vote and dissent without drones zapping me.
I don't live in the US. The US is not going to start a war with my country to kill some random internet commenter for criticising them, even if they could identify me. They certainly will arrest Americans for speaking out[1], but although the domestic situation is becoming even worse than it already was, it was never anything like your propaganda would have you believe. The American government slaughtered students for protesting the Vietnam War[2] and yet the brainwashed masses can't stop boasting about how free their country is, it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47342776 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
> As someone who apparently reads leftist theory
You don't need to read leftist theory to be opposed to American imperialism, you simply need to not be American, or else be a non-nationalist American with a conscience (exceedingly rare, I am aware). I do understand that it is difficult for American commenters to conceive that they could be speaking to someone who is not American, given the usual belief that the US is the center of the universe.
> also typing on a computer on HN, so you're a "beneficiary of the empire" regardless of where you live
Speaking of which, "computers/the internet wouldn't have been invented if not for the US" is a classically arrogant American thing to say.
Also misquoting me at the end, my point is you must be connected to the global tech economy which is still dominated by US capital, but go on and larp if you want.
You assumed I'm American I can assume you are too. Your manufactured fatalist narrative seems to suggest people to larp instead of using democratic methods to resist the far right, that thinking has been been heavily pushed by the elites on social media in the US to discredit and disorganize the left.
I think we're also historically lucky that China is ruled by the CPC, whatever you dislike about them it could be much worse, a few historical accidents going differently and it could just as easily be a Han fascist government invading all its neighbors. Be grateful for what you have before it's gone. Steam is one of the last unshittified apps remaining in existence.
This is not my understanding of the matter. Apparently only 11% of Americans were in support of the students, with the majority supporting the troops. Granted, my source for this is the Wikipedia article, which I am well aware of the deficiencies of. If you have recommended reading that suggests Kent State was significantly influential on the outcome of future protests and US withdrawal, I'm open to it.
> my point is you must be connected to the global tech economy which is still dominated by US capital
I work for a bootstrapped Turkish startup with no outside capital, American or otherwise, but try again :) or is America, center of the universe as it is, responsible for the existence of all tech economies everywhere?
> Your manufactured fatalist narrative seems to suggest people to larp instead of using democratic methods to resist the far right,
Uh, my what? What? I'm simply disputing the irrritating claim that we're oh-so-lucky to have had benevolent American overlords and how it could've been much worse. I honestly don't know if it could've been much worse. At a certain threshold of outright evilness, you get the entire world uniting against you, as Germany saw. America manages to perfectly straddle the line such that it can be the most optimally amount of evil and still get away with it unchecked for centuries. Internally, it committed the degree of atrocities that inspired the Nazis -- Lebensraum is rebranded Manifest Destiny, and the Jim Crow laws were the blueprint for by-the-books legalised discrimination, but externally, it managed diplomacy much better, conducting just the right frequency of invasions with just the right propaganda massaging not to find itself at war with everyone at once.
For whatever it's worth, I agree that we're lucky to have Valve/Steam for all its faults. It is a flawed company that could be much worse. I don't know why you felt the need to relate it to America.
Hell, they even buy timed exclusive access to certain games
And yet. Steam persists
By "everyone" I mean game studio owners. They're desperate to not pay 30% to Valve / Sony / Apple / whatever.
The vast majority of people that work at game studios don't really care about that, they see a shrinking fraction of the profits of their employers and worsening conditions.
https://www.fortnite.com/news/fortnite-developers-will-soon-...
Unless you're inside Fortnite, where Epic takes a 63% cut of any 'in game item' you sell, and you don't have a choice of storefront inside the game.
Rules for me, but not for thee, so sayeth Timmy Tencent as he collects his next ten cents of revenue from a twelve year old.
https://www.reddit.com/r/xonotic/comments/1tyqx5w/i_ported_x...