Anyway, you can distinguish this from the debate over copyright.
They explicitly do not promise reasoning traces. You (general you) agree to those terms and pay for that bargain anyways.
But personally it’s not about right and won’t it’s just blatant bullshit.
Just because you paid for the lawyer time/LLM tokens doesn't mean you get access to everything that happened within that time/tokens.
> but you’re charged for the report itself separately from the summary, and you are not allowed to access the unsummarized report
This analogy works if the LLM provider promises you access to the reasoning tokens, and fails if they don’t.
Whether that violates the ToS is another matter Anthropic is of course free to sue for damages or stop doing business with you.
Alternatively, I paid for the tokens therefore I should have access to them. If the vendor wants to artificially hide them from me, I'll just find another way to access them.
No, I literally am paying for the thought process, per token. "Pay only for the result" is not how these things are billed.
If I was being charged for the raw, output/input token count, excluding thinking/reasoning token costs, then sure. But at least via the API, you pay for tokens you cannot see.
There are features of input and output that are opaque to you, but that you pay for. Part of how model providers chose to run their service.
Lets not gloss over this claim. Being: “Stealing is a morally charged term made up by future monopolists.”
I strongly disagree. Stealing is not a made up term and property rights are foundational for any society. Your take is at least sensationalist if not malicious.
If you broke into a data center, pulled a hard drive and drive off with it - that’s stealing. If you accessed a copy of some information - that’s infringement, unauthorized access, or some other violation. But that’s not “stealing”, which fundamentally requires a loss or otherwise depriving original owner of the property that was stolen.
Do you think stealing is real?
Compare this to “the smell of soup and the sound of money” type “theft”.
Copy vs move is IMHO accurate semantics.
I don't "think" it's not real. I know.
Do you agree with what he actually said?
The current copyright status quo has them placed in the public domain. There is literally nothing wrong with "stealing" those tokens. They have exactly zero legal protection. "Stealing" those AI output tokens is so fundamentally impossible that it wouldn't be "stealing" in this case even if you subscribe to the copyright monopolist propaganda that copyright infringement is "stealing", and I most certainly do not.
Hilariously, that means we don't even fall prey to things like DMCA anticircumvention laws. If they encrypt the reasoning traces and we break the encryption somehow, we've done nothing wrong since the data wasn't copyrighted in the first place!
This thread and this entire topic isn’t about stealing physical goods or money. We can all agree that if I break into your house and take your TV then that’s the ancient, obvious crime of stealing.
Grice’s maxims and common sense indicate that we’re talking about the word “stealing” as applied to infringement or unauthorized copying.
- This is about me
- I created this
- Neither of the above, but according to some story I get to control who sees it
Maybe some of those ideas are worth building into our society, but let's not pretend that The Code of Hammurabi gave a damn about intellectual property. IP was invented by the church so they could censor editions of the bible they didn't like and has been used to justify similar kinds of censorship ever since.
The foundational thing about property is that when it gets stolen, somebody else has it, and you don't.
We can hold the AI companies responsible for their actions without contributing to notions about property that encourage censorship.
Stealing pertains to more than just data. I think you agree with me that stealing isnt a made up term.
Please reread what he said. He didnt say “distilling” was morally charged made up term by future monopolists. He said “stealing.” Thats insane.
You're fixating on a few clumsily placed words and coming away with a meaning which that poster did not intend. Consider absorbing the whole context before going on the offensive. The link they shared makes it pretty clear what they were trying to say even if they fumbled the words a little.
arguable, and even more tenuous for intellectual "property", which was a relatively recent invention. plenty of interesting arguments over this way back to even the 19th century.
Is this stealing? Is it depriving NYT or publishers/writers from money via lost sales/subs? I don't know, but it certainly could be.
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/business/media/new-york-t...
Mass downloading copyrighted works is. Which they did. Aaron got threatened with 20 years, they got pentagon contracts.
Dont you agree thats either sensationalist hyperbole or a genuinely crazy idea?