upvote
People in companies that are a negative public good are by definition unethical. I'm not surprised by anything they do. The real problem is how we've let these companies infiltrate so much of our society so fast. I can't consume any ad supported media without getting some ad about them. This company really defines the phrase "money talks"
reply
They're built on adtech, which people don't understand.

You have many adtech online dossiers that are basically a virtual you, that can be poked, prodded and studied for interests and behaviors.

for a very minimal look, maybe check out amazon "about you":

https://www.amazon.com/slc/hub?useAiMode=1

reply
That wasn't really alarming to me, "Likely reads diverse literary fiction." Nice.

But what _was_ alarming was this persistent banner on the page: "Your other AI assistants have learned about you. Bring that knowledge here for an even more personalized experience."

Okay...so let's click *Import* and see what this is all about...

Step 1: Copy [prompt](https://gist.github.com/jenh/dcad304585e23fccc50ac514bc3605c...).

(!!!)

Step 2: Log into your AI assistant and paste it in.

(?!, okay, let's see what we get...)

Step 3: Paste AI assistant's response. Submit the response from your AI assistant below. We will remember the information you share to improve your experience across Amazon services. *To protect your privacy, we may not save all of the information you submit.*

How about...don't do this at all, or at the very least, please ask users to review the returned response for things they might not want to share with Amazon.

What a strange, hokey, non-vetted, and privacy-violating feature...

reply
Yet I keep getting ads in Spanish on Amazon Prime video and nobody in our household understands that language. We don't listen to Mexican polka music or watch telenovelas with subtitles, we don't have Spanish-speaking help, there is literally zero Spanish in our house. And it's not Spanish-only ads, it's usually big telco (T-Mobile now, some other before) or car ads, which sometimes run in English version. The list at the link is primarily a collection of the random facts from reviews for me, so it knows a lot about my cats but not much about me. Feel pretty comfy if this is the SOTA of adtech.
reply
Neighbors and thin walls perhaps?
reply
Live in a house, there are some Mexican polka aficionados driving their low-riders down the street (I live in Texas) but it only reaches inside as base. Even if Amazon could have found the music they play by matching the rhythm, it does not look like a smart decision to target Spanish ads on this basis. Other than Prime Video, which I don't use quite often, I subscribe to Audible and Kindle, with perhaps 1000 of titles between these two. None in Spanish.

Spotify has the same issue (they play ads in podcasts despite paying for subscription) but I don't know if their ads are just local ads made in Spanish only (I live in Texas) since I have no clue what they advertise. They also play ads in what I believe is Canadian French because it does not sound quite like French (which I also don't know but can understand a bit better than Spanish).

reply
"About you

We haven't saved anything yet. As you shop on Amazon or chat with Alexa, we'll save helpful information to personalise your experience.

Once we have saved some details, you can manage them here."

I've had that account since ... well, I can see orders back to 2011.

reply
Interestingly it said absolutely nothing about all the sex toys and fetish clothing I buy. Something tells me this is only the tip of the iceberg.
reply
I wouldn't be surprised if they actually filtered those out of your ad target model. Most people don't care if advertisers know they like cooking, but not so much their fetishes
reply
I deleted everything from the "about you" page and still get pretty much hte same recommendations.
reply
Unless proven otherwise I assume any delete button in 2026 is just

    UPDATE tracking_data
    SET shown_in_interface = false
    WHERE account_name = 'm463'
reply
I suspect this is "about you - that you won't choke on"
reply
Wow, that is wild.

"Is an expert at making pasta salad"

I am pretty good. I forgot I got those ingredients at WF. I guess it liked that recipe.

reply
I pulled that info from a full export of my Amazon data and...

"Customer indicated they are currently in the Pacific Ocean" - "Amazon has medium confidence in the validity of this memory"

Well, then. I guess trying to break Alexa for Shopping by telling it I was in the middle of the English Channel really broke my "about you".

I also had managed to update my About You in weird ways - I got it to accept some kind of variant of "is a gold rewards subscriber of Jeff's Benzos powered by PillPack" and it agreed that was a valid service when I later asked it and guardrailed itself at the same time:

https://i.ibb.co/Fkh94dv9/photo-2026-08-24-11-22-27.jpg

reply
Holy heck.

> Systematically completes series once started

> Likely listens to music or audio content with critical attention

reply
Our representatives both dem and republican (but slightly more Republican) have decided that the mountain of data that for profit companies have on is a benefit overall to the economy and we’re the guinea pigs for psychological experiments - the “American consumer” is the #1 commodity the US mines.
reply
Which would shed all those grand visions from tech tycoons about a fully UBI-financed "pure consumer" economy in a different light: "We couldn't care less about jobs, but guinea pigs - we need lots of those!"
reply
We are unethical for letting it get to the state it has. The voters define the phrase "money talks".
reply
You're diluting responsibility with this comparison and it doesn't help.

You're trying to compare the people who actively build and support these platforms knowing full well what they're doing, with the people who go to vote for lower taxes or more jobs... oh and this hidden lobby agreement to not hurt gambling platforms. If you as a voter think these two things are at the same level by all means, call yourself a shitstain and I won't get in your way.

But nobody votes on these matters, they just come bundled (and hidden for 99.99% of people) under the broad political agenda of a handful of elected representatives who mostly focus their platform on economy, military, etc. not betting sites. This isn't any candidate's platform header. The voter is at best ignorant to these hidden issues. And even if voters did vote on this directly, it's not an obligation for anyone to actively support and contribute.

People choose to build and support platforms which are 100% harmful for anyone but themselves and the shareholders. And they should be chastised. They're free to build whatever fits their moral values, we should all be allowed to criticize according to ours even if you think the blame should be spread across 150 million voters for whatever reason.

reply

  The real problem is how we've let these companies infiltrate so much of our society so fast
- Glass stiegel repealed - Automatic weapons ban lifted - Sports gambling ban lifted - Many more

All the hard work of the people who suffered and fought to achieve this wisdom only for it to be abandoned.

Generations making the same mistakes over and over even with boundless knowledge at our fingertips. Really showcases how important education and especially reverence for education is.

reply
> Automatic weapons ban lifted

Weirdly, you still have a ban on sniper rifles and on AP rounds.

reply
I wish the ads were restricted to ad-supported media instead of arriving in the mail. I don't know what better evidence I need to avoid them than by how fucking aggressive they are about finding new suckers and offering money to help grease the slide into gambling addiction.
reply
Prediction markets seemed like a possible exception to the rule that anything to do with betting is always a scourge on the commons, but those companies quickly realized sports gambling is the best way to rake in cash, so they all converge on it.

I am one of the very few people in the United States who actually does still earnestly believe prediction markets do in principle serve an immense social good that can't be provided in any other way: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/prediction-market-faq

Just, in practice, Polymarket and Kalshi are (unsurprisingl)y run by people who solely care about how much revenue they could ever possibly inhale.

And everything else about them is so unethical and so destructive to the commons I would support them being metaphorically razed to the ground.

Like, just the Kalshi and Polymarket Twitter accounts alone contribute more to disinformation (disinformation, not misinformation) than Alex Jones could ever dream of. And then all the accounts affiliated with them make it 1000x worse. And then they have so many other unbelievable scandals I'd have to write a wall of text to list them all. Tons of egregiously machiavellian, intelligence agency-tier tactics and operations.

The only prediction markets that seem to be mostly upside with minimal downside are the ones that do not accept real money.

reply
I've always wondered if you could solve most of the negatives by imposing a "money in per year" limit on online gambling. Let's say, you can only transfer in 1000 dollars per year or something; maybe it's a federal limit tracked to your SSN or required to be declared on your tax forms or something. You can of course transfer OUT as much money as you win, and carry over any earnings to next year without affecting the limit. But aside from people for whom 1000 dollars a year is a huge deal, you avoid the worst harms. The people who benefit the most and eventually become disproportionately represented in the pool are superforcasters who can consistently turn a profit by being smarter and better at predicting stuff than everybody else.
reply
An idealized prediction market could be a social good the same way a frictionless spherical cow is good for making my physics homework easier.

There is no way to remove the incentive for people with the ability to alter the events being bet on. Insider trading is generally considered a bad thing for the stock market because of the non symmetrical information for everyone trading but all of sudden in the past few years a cohort of people(rationalists) have found it virtuous

reply
I think the thing is insider trading genuinely is exactly part of how prediction markets contribute something that was not offered before: a more accurate way for the public to gauge the probability of future outcomes. I, as a rationalist, think there is a lot of good that results from that.

It just happens to almost always be the case that the bad greatly outweighs the good, and it usually just leads to things like brazen war profiteering (+ plan-leaking that jeopardizes operations, in the event the military operations were perhaps for a morally net good cause).

reply
Yea, like I said. We all understood this as a bad thing and why. Then the rationalists came around and reasoned their way into how vice is a virtue.
reply
Seriously, the so called rationalists seem to be working very hard to be as weird as possible. Some sort of pathological contrarianism.
reply
They know they are rational because they are rationalists. If they decide an idea is good it must be rational.

Before any of their defenders(and I’m including e/acc and most of TESCREAL in this criticism) come at me about how much introspection they do and how they constantly try to question their theories or be LessWrong you’ll have to explain things like prediction markets, Bankman-Fried, or the litany of other warped ideas coming out of this group that are causing harm to society.

reply
How does that even work?

An insider doesn’t make their bets known until they are certain they can take advantage of it. The whole point of the move is to predate on the rubes.

In all the cases of insider trading I have been aware of, I have never once heard this argument, until that interview with a prediction market CEO.

The whole point of insider trading is to ensure an unfair trade. The moment you enshrine unfairness as a core tenet of your market place, it loses price discovery capability, ensuring that the surplus is captured by manipulation not performance.

reply
Because it’s targeting gambling addicts as the rubes.

When you have shit like will the government attack X nation by 9:00 pm on Friday, it takes very little for the insiders with levers to decide if the event in question is going to happen, to make the event happen.

It’s beyond even regular corporate insider trading which was usually predicated on secret information, not the literal ability to decide if an event occurs.

reply
Prediction market is undistinguishable from unregulated gambling in literally all its aspects.
reply
This falls under the umbrella of "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism". Everything you do supports somebody who's doing something bad. There's really no way to avoid it. Heck, it was even a plot point on The Good Place.

The issue is that our economic system is coercive. You need a job. Now this doesn't excuse you from doing any job but you also need to live.

Take the big tech companies. They're essentially military contractors now. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc are functionally no different to RTX, Boeing or Lockheed Martin.

But should you treat someone who works on Android the same as someone who works out on AI systems for military targeting? Probably not. Also, Palantir is fundamentally more evil than any of these tech companies. So it's tricky.

I do agree that online gambling as a whole is deeply unethical. There is no positive byproduct of this. Your salary is paid by people losing money, probably through addiction. And yes, you can say people have free will but you're still preying on and growing addiction.

reply
>The issue is that our economic system is coercive. You need a job.

That's hardly the problem of the economic system, and more of a underlying problem with the the universe (ie. entropy and all).

reply
When people say “the problem is that our economic system…”, I’ve stared to simply ask, “which economic system is the one where you do not need a job?”
reply
One that isn't built on debt bondage and a massive wealth transfer to the old and wealthy. Student debt, housing debt and medical debt are all designed to keep you a complaint worker who will increasingly never escape that debt. We have increasingly just replaced the dukes and kings of old with centibillionaires. Together we're bouldering towards what many of us call "neofeudalism".

This is one thing that Karl Marx and Adam Smith agreed on: landlords are parasitic that reduce economic output. It's another way we're returning to a virtual aristocracy as land gets concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.

This is all going to further fall apart once we don't need everyone to be employed. Arguably we're already there. What are the rest of the people meant to do? Starve and die? At some point you realize the only way forward is to collectively own the wealth you help create.

reply
deleted
reply
Your moral compass seems to be very close to some very powerful magnets
reply
> This falls under the umbrella of "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism".

No it doesn't. There is a time and place for the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" mantra, but increasingly (as is the case with your comment) it is being deployed as piece of whataboutism to distract from clearly unethical behavior by implying it is no worse than anything else. There's actually a massive difference between businesses which have complicated tradeoffs in the means of delivering what is basically a social good, and facilitating sports gambling, a negative-sum activity which ruins people's lives for basically no upside whatsoever.

(It's deeply ironic that a slogan originally coined by socialists has found its most use by capitalists trying to get off the hook for their actions, but I guess most rebellious anti-establishment sentiments are ultimately co-opted for profitable ends.)

reply
deleted
reply
Is any form of entertainment or art a social good?

People can get "addicted" to practically any type of entertainment in that they spend a massive chunk of their time on it to the point it stifles their development.

Is sports gambling worse than f2p games? Are f2p games worse than regular video games? Is someone addicted to video games worse than someone addicted to reading fantasy novels? What about smutty novels?

I'm not sure is disagree with you but I think it is hard to start drawing these lines without saying you are now the arbiter of good art and bad art and you can ban some forms of art if you don't like them and have decided they are bad.

Now are you just banning things you don't like because you point to the societal harms as a fig leaf defense that could be applied to the art you do like as well?

reply
> I'm not sure is disagree with you but I think it is hard to start drawing these lines without saying you are now the arbiter of good art and bad art

There's a super easy line to draw actually and it has nothing to do with art

Are you selling a product or an experience?

If you're talking about someone addicted to fantasy novels or video games, they are addicted to products.

If you're talking about someone addicted to opening Magic the Gathering booster packs, or videogame loot boxes, or sports gambling, or prediction markets, they are addicted to experiences. In the case of loot boxes they are experiences shaped like products but the addiction is about the experience of opening the box, not really whatever is inside

So.. easier than you seem to think

Of course once lawyers get involved they'll quibble over this shit until the sun goes out

reply
Is selling a ticket to a movie an experience, or a product? Is a subscription to netflix a ticket or an experience? What about a subscription to world of warcraft?

If you paid for world of warcraft by the hour does that change if it is an experience or a product?

This doesn't really work because products and experiences have too much overlap.

What you are really against I think is the different ways in which we are gift wrapping a skinner box, but there are an infinite number of ways to wrap it that will bypass your specification system.

reply
> there are an infinite number of ways to wrap it that will bypass your specification system.

Which will matter to no one except lawyers

When most people smell shit they don't care if it's rat shit or cat shit, they just know it smells bad

reply
Is any form of entertainment or art a social good?

People can get "addicted" to practically any type of entertainment in that they spend a massive chunk of their time on it to the point it stifles their development.

Is sports gambling worse than f2p games? Are f2p games worse than regular video games? Is someone addicted to video games worse than someone addicted to reading fantasy novels? What about smutty novels?

I'm not sure is disagree with you but I think it is hard to start drawing these lines without saying you are now the arbiter of good art and bad art and you can ban some forms of art if you don't like them and have decided they are bad.

Now are you just banning things you don't like because you point to the societal harms as a fig leaf defense that could be applied to the art you do like as well?

Is it the % of people who show addictive tendencies to a piece of art/entertainment how we define if it is good or bad?

Is the morality of a form of entertainment defined by how many users show problematic consumption habits, such that in some populations an entertainment product is a moral good and in others it isn't? Is morality that flexible?

reply
You’re setting up lots of straw men here but it’s not a complicated argument.

Most people feel this is deeply wrong at a gut level and I agree with them. Targeting and squeezing addicts is not moral behaviour.

reply
Do any of these industries maintain dossiers on the psychological fault lines of their victims so they can screw them out of extra cash until they're either insane, bankrupt, or both?
reply
Ok, so is it intent that matters then?

So if they didn't keep those dossiers would that make them an ethical sports gambling company even if a high percentage of their users showed problematic usage patterns?

reply
Heck no. This is a version of the slippery slope fallacy.

People can’t get addicted to practically any type of entertainment. There is a range of susceptibility to gambling, amongst “people”.

We have an extensive range of rules and regulations that apply to gambling, and to things that have odds and payout schedules.

It took a while, but eventually lootboxes in games were recognized as a blight, and regulation is addressing their impact.

Generalizing entertainment from gambling is a huge stretch.

reply
The difference between gambling and any other compulsion or addiction is that only gambling can leave you broke and destitute in a single day, without regard for starting wealth. Maybe findom, but going completely broke is generally not the purpose.

The difference between drugs and other addictions is that (certain) drugs greatly increase the risk of death.

So I say let's divide it in two - addictions that can kill you or leave you in financial ruin in a single evening, and those that cannot.

reply
f2p games and tv shopping network addictions absolutely leave a significant number of people destitute.

There are many other hobbies/forms of entertainment that can easily consume significant resources and leave some % of their userbase in serious financial trouble/ruin their lives.

Also you seem to want to define whether a hobby/form of entertainment is moral or immoral based on how expensive it is. So if a slot machine had a lower max bet it would become moral?

reply
F2P games can absolutely be made to exploit the same mechanics as real gambling, and are often designed to do so. But no matter what they do, they're just not as potent as real money gambling. The pull isn't the same when it's not done with real cash, they tend to be less ruthless and it seems that a smaller proportion of people is potentially susceptible to F2P addiction compared to real gambling. For the right people, they can be very wallet-draining but it doesn't seem many go into homelessness like with gambling.

What's a "TV shopping network addiction"? I tried searching it, and I can only find isolated news articles from 5-15 years ago that report on it purely because of how unusual this is. Going to file this under 'people can get behaviorally addicted to anything', what a strange example. Do you even know anyone who has bought anything from a TV shopping network, let alone a 'significant number' that are left destitute?

The reason why people disagree with you is because the hair-splitting between different types of addictions seems very pedantic. Clearly people think that gambling addiction is not even on the same scale of addiction than the other examples. If F2P games are cocaine, then gambling is heroin. There is a reason why gambling is taking over Western economies so rapidly, but not any of those other things - it's just too good at exploiting people's brains. So when gambling addiction is so potent that it goes off the chart compared to any of the dozens of other things that can be psychologically addictive, people aren't particularly interested in finding the exact point where it's too much for society to bear - they just know that gambling is far beyond that point.

reply
Yes they can be, and gambling is definitely a different psychological mechanism with different financial outcomes than hobbies or collecting.
reply
I have heard that boating and aviation have similar financial financial outcomes to gambling. Keep in mind that the majority (way more than 50%) of people can engage with gambling safely, it is a minority that get into trouble
reply
> I have heard that boating and aviation have similar financial financial outcomes to gambling.

But is that because you're betting at the repair shop to pull a mint condition replacement engine for your plane, or because people find a way in by paying a bearable upfront cost and then find themselves drowning in unexpected additional expenses associated with these hobbies far beyond the price of a boat or plane? To me it seems like the second one, so it's not a very useful comparison to gambling, it's just a lack of knowledge, foresight and financial literacy.

The gambling industry keeps refining their strategies all the time, new technologies have been a godsend to them. So I wouldn't rely on statistics all too much, because their goal is to use all psychological tricks that can be exploited in our brains to make us make the wrong decision and head down that path. Their effectiveness increases, and so are the depths to which they can get people to sink in their addictions. If you can engage with it safely right now, that is no predictor of how you'll react to the state of gambling in 3, 5 or 10 years. It's like as if the alcohol industry was allowed to invent brand new drugs and sell them without any oversight, targeting maximum potency and addiction and constantly refining their formulations.

reply
f2p games and tv shopping network addictions absolutely leave a significant number of people destitute.

There are many other hobbies/forms of entertainment that can easily consume significant resources and leave some % of their userbase in serious financial trouble/ruin their lives.

Also I'm not sure it is correct to define morality by trying to connect how expensive a hobby/form of entertainment to whether it is immoral.

reply
Not at all in comparison to gambling, and the F2P model is a scourge which gamers themselves pointed out was poisonous. Regulation has increasingly been catching up to it.

We have an entire science built around gambling, and we know how to titrate the payoffs and reward schedules to get people increasingly addicted.

Our movies/stories aren’t actively (yet) changing themselves to maximize their ability to keep you pressing coins into a slot, or when to string you along.

reply
Bowling with friends?
reply
Many people enjoy gambling, and relatively few have a "problem", so "negative public good" is doing a lot of work there. DraftKings may indeed by unethical, but that doesn't mean that all or even most others are.
reply
In my state (Massachusetts), the number of people who call in to the state’s gambling problem hotline doubled after online sports books became legalized. That is, by definition, a negative effect on the public good. The net number of people seeking help for gambling problems increased by 100%.
reply
It’s definitely bad that twice as many people have a gambling problem. However to assess the NET impact you also have to count how much value/fun/whatever the non-problem-gamblers are having, plus whatever tax revenues you get, increased economic activity from more attention on sports, etc.

Personally I think these companies suck. Just need more work to make a strong good faith argument about it.

reply
I think an important question to ask is: how much of a company's income comes from harmful use?

Gambling (and some other industries, in particular alcohol) come out so bad on this metric, you can practically let the industry define excessive use themselves. In order to claim most of their money comes from "healthy normal entertainment use" or similar, they'd have to claim absurd things, such as that drinking a bottle of whisky per day or spending your entire paycheck each month on slots can be healthy, normal use.

reply
My problem with sports gambling is that all these companies are lying. If you win a lot you get (the gambling equivalent of) shadow banned[1]. The provider pretends they're providing a game where you can "win big" and it's all up to your knowledge of sports, but the reality is that it's a skewed playing field where you can either lose or lose more.

The common industry explanation is that this is because they would be unprofitable if they allowed "winners" to keep betting, which tells you everything you need to know. These businesses can only exist because they're allowed to skew the odds in their favour. Eliminate this unfair practice and the problem goes away on its own.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/feb/19/stake-factor...

reply
Yeah, I've worked in the industry for a long time. I think good regulation would prevent per punter limits. I don't really see why doing this would make the industry unprofitable, the odds have a margin baked in, exactly the same as a 0 (and in the US the 00) in roulette. Worst case they would have to increase the margin, which maybe isn't so good for casual players but at least it's a level playing field.

I also find the common implementation of in-play delay poor. The way it generally works is a delay is applied before confirming the bet, anything which changes (including pricing) causes the bet to be rejected. The main reason for this is that the traders sometimes only have access to something like sky sports so their feed is quite far behind someone at the stadium. I feel like in reality it should be based on official timings.

reply
They will just switch to a betting exchange model where the house gets a percentage of the turnover and the rest is distributed to the players. Under this model there is no incentive to ban winners.
reply
The problem with this is liquidity, particularly well before an event. It's why the original exchange (or at least the first one I'm aware of) also now offer a normal sportsbook.
reply
But the two big players in question do not do this, do they?
reply
Gambling is extractive by definition, so I’m not particularly convinced that it’s not a problem for most of the people that “enjoy” it.
reply
I have worked in gaming before so feel free to disregard my opinion but I truly do enjoy occasional betting and while its hard to argue it’s a net positive in my life it has never caused any financial hardship.

Betting $25 on a game hijacks something in my brain that treats it like a fun problem to solve. It gets me interested in teams that I’d otherwise have no interest in. I’ve been betting on sports since the days of offshore betting sites and I can’t say I’ve ever lost or gained more than a few hundred dollars a year.

I’m an adult and I enjoy being able to gamble on sports. It’s never been a problem for me and I suspect it never will be because of the way I do treat it, strictly something to be done for fun.

I grew up in a household where family members also went to casinos and bet on sports responsibly so it was drilled into my head that you can’t ever beat the house and you should never bet what you couldn’t afford to lose.

What business do you have telling me what I’m allowed to do with my own money for fun?

reply
I'm someone who thinks corporations shouldn't be free to prey lawlessly on emotional weaknesses.

What business do you have telling everyone your personal experience justifies the horror others experience?

If you couldn't put down that $25, would you really not be able to find some other way to entertain yourself?

reply
Making gambling illegal doesn’t make it just go away. My Grandfather used to bet on sports in 40s and 50s with a local bookie. The bookies even ran sweepstakes which resembled the modern day lotto which my great grandmother played every week.

People like to gamble we need it legalized with reasonable regulations.

What my big problem is that Wall St and the wider market seems to be trending to the least ethical companies (Kalshi, Polymarket, Bettr) are running unregulated gambling operations, providing 0 tax money to offset societal costs and are denying what they’re offering is gambling at all and even promising you can make money off it.

reply
The fact that you and the industry try to call it "gaming" is still such a scummy thing. It's gambling. Call it what it is.
reply
I mean, it depends. Gambling in moderation is fine, and it can be fun. Aside from concerns about supporting casinos/gambling companies (which I'll acknowledge are real), I don't see any difference between paying $200 to play blackjack for a couple of hours and paying $200 for some other form of entertainment (e.g. attending a live show).
reply
Gambling isn't all the same, betting on horse races in person can be quite an enjoyable experience it's not nearly as accessible as online gambling.
reply
> this company is full of people with absolutely no ethics whatsoever

I believe this applies to any company which sells an inherently harmful, predatory, and addictive product or service

reply
I feel like a much larger fraction of the economy is predatory than is made out to be in these gambling discourses. Examples:

* FSA plans are designed to get you to gamble on how much medical expenses you will have; if you overestimate, you either lose the money or spend it on shit you otherwise wouldn't buy; if you underestimate, you pay taxes on stuff you shouldn't be paying taxes on. The healthy alternative would be: Cut the FSA, let people just tax deduct medical expenses at tax time, even small ones.

* Extended warranty plans are baiting you to pay for something you are statistically unlikely to need. The healthy alternative would be: Just service things past warranty and charge a much more reasoanable price for it.

* Insurances but co-insurances, deductibles, clauses: "We'll bait you into paying because you think we'll pay but we'll not actually pay because it says in the fine print"

* Trip protection: Asking you to gamble on the probability of a mishap, instead of just covering mishaps out of the box

reply
In theory, insurance is the polar opposite of gambling. It's supposed to be reducing your risk, while gambling increases it. Like "do you want to gamble on that TV lasting, or do you want to buy the extended warranty?" But in practice, the pricing is so terrible that it's not worth it.
reply
Clearly, the solution is gambling insurance!
reply
> The healthy alternative would be: Cut the FSA, let people just tax deduct medical expenses at tax time, even small ones.

That's an interesting rabbit hole. Some FSA types, but not all, have full funds available on day 1 of the year. And no provision for clawback if you terminate your employment before the end of the year. So when you forfeit due to overestimating the total, it does not go to the IRS, but your company. But the upside is the funds being available on day 1, with you having to wait until the next tax filing rolls around.

reply
> no provision for clawback

Unless you're planning on quitting jobs mid year every year I wouldn't really call that an advantage. On all other years you either end up buying piles of shit you don't need just to not lose your FSA dollars you gambled that you would use but didn't, or end up underestimating your medical bills. It's such a broken system that one even has to make guesses like this. There is no need to make people guess.

> funds being available on day 1

Most people with FSAs have higher disposable income so this isn't really an advantage either. Lower income folks typically have HSAs instead.

reply
Yes. Gambling goes a long way. I just recommended Natasha Dow Schüll and Addiction by Design.

That leads us to BJ Fogg's Persuasive Design Lab at Stanford and the addictive software design.

Tobacco industry owners figured out their time's out and bought food stock and put their addiction department to design food to be addictive.

Where should we head next?

reply
Obviously “AI”
reply
Revolution.
reply
Hope you're including all the state governments and their lotteries in this assessment.
reply
The incentives driving state lotteries are not nearly as strong as those driving private companies like Draft Kings but yeah not great either.

Used to work at 7-Eleven and we would have people come in and out for hours on end pouring money into scratch tickets.

State lotteries are just a regressive tax targeting the poor.

reply
> State lotteries are just a regressive tax targeting the poor.

As bad as the odds are, the lottery is still the best chance most players will ever have to be millionaires

reply
To be a millionaire, maybe, but a $300/month scrather habit over 20 years, in a 401k that's just the SP 500 gets you a quarter million dollars, which isn't nothing to retire on, vs approximately $0 from scratchers.
reply
Dude no offense but you must be vastly overestimating how many people can save $300 a month. We're talking about people buying couple lottery tickets a month.
reply
> We're talking about people buying couple lottery tickets a month

Those people do not have a gambling problem, though. They are dropping a few bucks a month to buy a daydream. It could be worse, they could be spending 10x that on Starbucks.

reply
That's the problem though. I know many people who can't save $300/month, but easily spend that much in consumables, scratchers, alcohol, drugs, etc. On the subject of gambling addiction, $300/month by someone who can't afford it absolutely happens. Go to a GA meeting sometime. They get their paycheck, gamble it away, and then don't have money for rent. Unrestricted gambling is the devil and will be the downfall of America. I'm not one for "shoulds", but there should be something like an accredited gambler law, where you're not allowed to gamble more than 1/3rd your paycheck except in certain circumstances.
reply
> there should be something like an accredited gambler law, where you're not allowed to gamble more than 1/3rd your paycheck except in certain circumstances.

What would that look like? Would gamblers have to send copies of their pay stubs or bank statements to every casino or gas station they visit and every gambling app they use? I'd be happy if we focused on restricting the most harmful actions of the companies who profit from the people they turned into addicts. No more online sports betting. No more adverting for gambling. No more targeting children with gambling in video games that accept real money for anything. No more using AI or surveillance to detect and target addicts.

reply
Payday loan places usually look at paystubs before extending a loan, so all I'm suggesting is places where you can gamble have to implement the same technology. The restrictions you mention seem harder to pass under a banner of "but muh freedom".
reply
So we're in agreement. Those people didn't have $300 to save on anything to begin with, they just spent it anyway at the expense of other needs.
reply
At least those often fund things like state education so, over time, the pool of victims is maybe lessened by the success of the program? Maybe?

(I am not defending state lotteries, but I do think there's some distinction to be made between "we actively exploit people to maximize our profits for our own sakes" and "we regulate the passive exploitation of people to supplement taxes in a regressive manner." Or something. I dunno, maybe somebody has more elaborate thoughts on this to share.)

reply
In many places where gambling is banned, there is still gambling. And in places where it's legalized, it can (in theory) be effectively regulated (if there's political will, which is difficult to muster sometimes). And say what you will about lotteries, but it's far easier to blow your life savings at casinos and with sports betting than buying a bunch of lottery tickets.
reply
Permit lotteries. Ban lottery advertising. A moral government shouldn't advertise products known to be harmful to the public.
reply
Can we just ban all advertising except for word of mouth (but including fake word of mouth)?
reply
I'd be happy to stop billboards, other large public displays and those shitty coro-plast ones that jerks put next to the slip road telling me they pay cash for houses or have some magical mosquito treatment. Start there and work our way up?
reply
yes you can enjoy the free speech you want and other people can't tell us more great one
reply
Individual humans get free speech, not corporations.
reply
Sports betting apps are so “gamified” now that many people don’t stand a chance. They’ve made a bleeding edge addiction platform
reply
See nature preserves that are funded by regulated big game hunting of the preserved nature.

It's a fun moral question. At what point do you give up trying to make someone/a population healthier and say "well if you're going to be this way, we might as well get some use out of you"?

reply
And the legal option makes it less likely that organized crime will jump in to offer the service.

(To me, it seems) The same people who screamed to legalize weed a few years ago are vehemently against alcohol and gambling.

reply
"we regulate the passive exploitation of people to supplement taxes in a regressive manner."

I was convinced by this for a full 30 seconds before I realized there are millions of advertisements for the state lotteries. They aren't just regulating a market that will exist with or without the state, they are actively promoting and encouraging it

reply
Can only speak for Pennsylvania, where I live, but before the lottery there were numbers games run by organized crime. At least with a state-run lottery they're a bit more honest about how you're getting screwed and they can tax the winnings.
reply
> At least those often fund things like state education so, over time, the pool of victims is maybe lessened by the success of the program? Maybe?

You have some numbers to check.

(“Elaborate thoughts” aren’t needed here - are more people spending less on the lottery? where does each state spend the money?)

reply
I've got plenty of negative things to say about state government lotteries, but the ones I'm familiar with are structured in less predatory ways. It's hard to spend thousands of dollars on lottery tickets, and impossible to do so in a way that won't feel obviously stupid, especially since you can't buy them on your phone.
reply
You can buy them on your phone in some states, e.g. Georgia. Their "scratch offs" look just like slot machines and give the same lovely dopamine spikes; used to drop $100 in every couple months when I just needed happy brain chemicals.
reply
especially since you can't buy them on your phone

Yet

reply
Meta, ByteDance, ...
reply
The problem is, some humans seem to be consistently drawn towards products or services that fit that description.

In the 1980s, if you wanted to gamble in my city, you went to a gambling den operated by the Civella crime family. If you got caught in a police raid, your life was ruined. If you got behind on your debts, the mob might take it out of you, literally. These were known risks, but people did it anyways.

Then, in the 1990s, there was a change in the casino gaming laws. Casinos opened with harm reduction measures in place. You can absolutely destroy your finances for life in one, but there are ways out.

These apps need regulation like in-person gambling has. Whatever they currently have, it's not enough.

reply
deleted
reply
deleted
reply
It isn't inherently addictive. Gambling addiction is significantly less common than alcohol addiction, and has no properties that make it inherently addictive to someone who is not predisposed towards that addiction (unlike drugs, for example, which are inherently addictive to all humans).

Some slot machines/casino games are designed to appeal to problem gamblers. DK and co, however, do not design these games, and state regulators do already control aspects of their design. For online operators, this doesn't represent most of their revenue and, I suspect, most would be quite happy not to provide these products.

reply
I've seen this "it only affects problem gamblers" thing so much that I suspect it's an intentional strategy to shift blame that takes advantage of people's natural tendency to believe the just world fallacy (bad things only happen to bad people).
reply
Nobody's life is ruined by gambling unless they've made a bunch of irresponsible decisions. Bad things certainly happen to good people, but problem-gambling is self inflicted.
reply
Gambling is absolutely inherently addictive as it's essentially perfectly paired with your brains reward system and hijacks it. There's literally dopamine cycle and tolerance happening. And when compounded by algorithms and notifications which are designed to amplify this even further I'm not sure how you can think it's not inherently addictive.
reply
[dead]
reply
> unlike drugs, for example, which are inherently addictive to all humans

Define "drugs". Alcohol is a drug. Most users aren't addicts. So is tobacco. Most users are addicts. Cannabis? More like alcohol than tobacco in terms of addictiveness.

There may be some selection bias. Smoking tobacco is an unpleasant sensation. There's no reason to do it other than the addiction and the effects on your brain chemistry afterwards. Whereas many alcoholic drinks taste great in their own right and would be consumed even if they had no chemical effects.

I suspect gambling is like alcohol or cannabis. Engaging in it affects brain chemistry. For some people that's addictive. Most people are able to enjoy the activity without being hooked.

reply
>Smoking tobacco is an unpleasant sensation.

I disagree but maybe I’m just addicted.

reply
I stopped smoking 15-20 years back and still remember it fondly. It is definitely a pleasant, if smelly, experience.
reply
There’s no “maybe” about it.
reply
As a former smoker (I started and quit twice), I strongly disagree that "Smoking tobacco is an unpleasant sensation."

It's terrible for your health, it's "burning money", it literally makes you stink, it makes you winded walking up stairs, and is generally terrible.

But the little head rush you get starting the day with a coffee and a cigarette feels great.

reply
> But the little head rush you get starting the day with a coffee and a cigarette feels great.

That's the effect on brain chemistry I referred to.

Do you actually enjoy the smoke in your mouth, burning your eyes and lungs?

A cold beer on a hot day is refreshing just for its temperature alone. A fruity cocktail tastes good because sugar tastes good. What's enjoyable about the physical sensations produced by smoke?

I mean maybe we're arguing semantics, because the pleasure of eating sugar is possibly also an alteration of brain chemistry. But there is a difference.

reply
As a former smoker (quit in 2009), I absolutely LOVED smoking. The whole thing. Opening the pack, packing it down, pulling out the cigarette, lighting it, the first drag filling my lungs, the fullness in my chest. The only thing I didn't like was that it made me smell bad. When I started a job where I was working close to people and the smell made me insecure, I decided to quit. I still miss the ritual.

Anyone who has quit smoking will tell you that the habit is the hardest part about quitting, not the physical addiction.

reply
Most people don't actually like the taste of alcoholic drinks when they first try them as a teenager.

The reason you like the taste of beer is in large part because your brain has learned to associate that taste with good things happening (the alcohol feeling).

Same with coffee, it's bitter, objectively should taste bad, but you learn to like it.

It's the same process

reply
> The reason you like the taste of beer is in large part because your brain has learned to associate that taste with good things happening (the alcohol feeling).

Explain the popularity of non-alcoholic beer.

> Same with coffee, it's bitter, objectively should taste bad

Many fruits, vegetables, and foods (cheeses, unsweetened chocolate) are naturally bitter and widely enjoyed, even though they don't give you a high.

People also enjoy bitter caffeine-free herbal teas.

> Most people don't actually like the taste of alcoholic drinks when they first try them as a teenager.

Many children don't like vegetables either. Adults more often do. Our tastes change as we grow older.

reply
> Do you actually enjoy the smoke in your mouth, burning your eyes and lungs?

Many years ago when I smoked - yup, sure did. I loved the entire experience, except maybe going outside in the middle of winter.

reply
The real number we want evaluate is "what percent of the revenue comes from people experiencing significant negative consequences from the product."

For alcohol that number is something like 2/3 revenue from the top 10% of drinkers, who drink an order of magnitude more than the decile below them. I doubt gambling is very different but if you have more info I'm happy to hear it.

reply
Gambling is proven to be addictive in the same way many other things are, and the harm of severe addiction is comparable to that of the worst drugs. It's very common for severe gambling addicts to lose everything they have, to lose everything they love, to never psychologically recover, to kill themselves.
reply
Addictions spontaneously can turn on. For me, it was age 27. To classify people as inherently susceptible vs not is not accurate
reply
Makes me sick that all of the major-league sports are in bed with companies like Draft Kings, completely ignoring the fact that the next Pete Rose-style scandal — or worse — is absolutely going to happen any time now.
reply
IMHO one shouldn't expect a company to have any ethics to achieve a positive outcome for society. This needs to be baked into the rules (taxes, regulation, ...), so the ethical behavior becomes the rational behavior.
reply
I think we should be able to expect a company to have ethics, just like we should be able to expect them to follow the laws, but we should also regulate them to ensure that they do and punish them meaningfully when they fail to.
reply
> we should also regulate them to ensure that they do and punish them meaningfully when they fail to

Fully agree, that's what I mean.

reply
You can't have rules in a society, that are against the moral feeling of sizable chunk of the population. That's just going to be a source for conflict. At some point you do need a population with a moral compass or you get nowhere as a ruler, especially in participatory ruling systems like a democracy.
reply
So, you want government to decide what is good and bad behavior?
reply
I think it's not a matter of want. The goverment makes the rules, and the rules decide the emergent behavior of people, in companies and elsewhere. Whether their emergent behavior is good or bad, whatever that means, is a result of the way that your particular country selects the goverment. Mine is probably different than your's.
reply
We do this with laws already
reply
I do want the government to protect people from predatory and exploitative behavior.
reply
companies are a fiction made out of people, they don't have anything, and regardless what the rules are I expect those people to behave ethically at any given time.

I'm not entirely sure when people started to have this idea that when they walk through a company door, as if this is some magical portal into the realm of amorality, give up their human responsibilities and faculties

reply
> I expect those people to behave ethically at any given time.

A company is set up and incentivised to maximize a profit function, and that in turn incentivises to promote people which are not impeded by ethical considerations. The hierarchy furthermore ensures that people which would otherwise act ethical, don't, for fear of losing their job. This structure behaves ethical as long as you put ethics in the profit function.

reply
Again, who is setting it up, who is "the hierarchy", who "puts ethics into a profit function". This is weasel language to not talk about the ethical responsibility of individual human beings.

These firms don't spawn into existence, they don't choose their own functions and if the people in charge don't think ethically why should anyone else? Ethics is not a game of musical chairs. The people in charge of that company can choose, right now, to orient it towards a direction that's ethical, if that's not possible they can choose to close it down or leave. That's up to any person at any point.

There's nobody to do ethics for you, there is no ethics fairy to magically imbue your company with ethics, and if you hope the politicians or "the law" does it but you can't, why do you think the politicians are going to be any better, they all have the same financial incentives. It is you or nobody else.

reply
they are making a moral decision but a selfish one. If I take this job I can eat and support my family, if I don't I need to hope that I find another one.

Very few actually want to work for corporations that are unethical and prey on people and their weaknesses, but a large portion of the population does.

reply
"I'm not entirely sure when people started to have this idea that when they walk through a company door, as if this is some magical portal into the realm of amorality, give up their human responsibilities and faculties"

how can you became this naive ???? this is literally a company that get profit when you a lose

for their ethics, its inline with company mission

reply
This is not a naive take. He doesn't say there can't be bad people/companies, he says the ethics of a company are the ethics of their constituents.
reply
It started with Milton Friedman and the idea that The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits -- full stop, nothing else.

That frees one to think in a different way. No longer constrained by the convention of the common good, some folks, for instance, watched the movie "Wall Street", and took it not as the warning it so clearly was, but rather as in instruction manual. The wider populace believes this nonsense because it was passed on to us via Television, the Great Glowing Box of Truth that for the big chunk of the 20th century was the arbiter of reality.

Now we have people so confused by this bullshit and so in need of viewing themselves as "temporary poor" that they vote against their own interests on a regular basis.

Fortunately, the changing climate will wipe us out. :)

reply
I don’t think anyone ethical really goes into gambling business. I know engineers who left their high paying job in these “gaming” businesses to work for software companies because they see how many lives are destroyed and they are part of that system
reply
Would love to be a fly on the wall in whatever board room in the world has somebody saying “yes, we could increase profits by doing X, but that would be unethical so of course we won’t”
reply
This happens at every gambling company in regulated markets like the US or Europe.

For comparison, there are offline casinos who use targeted adverts saying that they do not comply with regulators, and their adverts are designed in such a way as to appeal to people with gambling addiction (usually showing some kind of live play, which is banned in every regulated market afaik).

You can be sceptical of the motives of individuals but there are very strong corporate incentives from state regulators (in the US, particularly those with physical casinos).

reply
> This happens at every gambling company in regulated markets like the US or Europe.

No something clearly different happens in regulated markets. There's a massive difference between "This would make us more money, but we won't do that because it's unethical" and "I wish we could get away with doing this unethical thing to make more money, but sadly current regulations make this one unprofitable for now. Lets increase our lobbying spend to try to fix that."

reply
What usually happens is they talk about statistics rather than demographics. Eg “when doing x we’ve seen a 5% rise in engagement but a 50% rise in spend from those engaged”

Nobody is actually blind to the reality of the stats but this kind approach makes it both easier to dehumanise their actions as well as giving them plausible deniability when asked if they target specific demographics such as addicts.

reply
The best thing would be to ban these sites. But barring that, they should be required to have auditing involving secret accounts that display this behavior and see how the app responds. It is crazy that they are allowed to send notifications to users that have set limits and use other techniques to encourage them to transfer more money.
reply
> The best thing would be to ban these sites.

I think we could legislate some easy-to-understand, easy-to-enforce rules. Like, "you can't have more than N bets open at a time." (1?) Or, "you can't have more than $1,000 worth of bets open at a time."

True, addicts could skirt these rules by having different bets on different sites. But at least it would add a little friction, and it would be easy to monitor compliance.

reply
I worked for the "gaming" (as they call themselves) industry.

They seem to have not gotten the memo that they're a legitimate business now.

reply
Meaning that, should they get the memo, they’d change their behaviour to that of a legitimate business? Not being combative here, just not sure I follow what you’re saying.
reply
Hopefully something comes of it. When ProPublica blew open the rent-fixing scam, officials laser-focused on one company that was doing what the entire industry was doing, dragged out prosecution, and then settled for peanuts, with the people whose lives were thrown into upheaval by criminal rent increases *ahem* not seeing a dime. What should have been a major scandal, what should have rocked the housing market, was instead brushed under the rug. And, of course it was, because it would have rocked the housing market.

I'm just saying, don't get your hopes up.

reply
Beautiful and depressing read
reply
The libertarian in me says people should be allowed to make their own choices but I can't negate that gambling in poor is overall significantly negative for society. Before India banned this kind of gambling, I had a firend who worked as a data scientist for Dream11, an online fatasy cricket like gambling app. He was able to see a lot about the people playing. Oftentimes, the daily 'ticket size' was somewhere around 100-300INR (about $1-3), these were folks earning maybe 1.5 to twice that at the most. Their kids were often going hungry so their parents could play.
reply
>The libertarian in me says people should be allowed to make their own choices

This is a real question/comment, not a snarky one. When a libertarian says "people should be allowed", it seems to me to only mean "individuals". Because when "people", through their government, "make their own choices" collectively, this seems to be where libertarians get worked up.

reply
Are people with ethics going to seek out jobs in the gambling industry, especially mobile addictionware gambling?

I'd work in weapons before I'd work in this. At least those are usually used against military targets and overall hurt or kill fewer people. A rocket might blow up one school, but this will destroy millions of families.

reply
> this company is full of people with absolutely no ethics whatsoever.

I have bad news for you about venture capital firms, one of which owns the website we’re posting on

reply
fork found in kitchen

I mean what do we expect ???? "the house" is playing fair ????

we literally have mobile game that have "gacha" which is full blown gamble and we pretend that the actual "online casino" is to play moral, ethics or fairness ??

we literally past that point ages ago

reply
Not just mobile games. Roblox is basically an online child casino, powered by child laborers being compensated in Robux scrip. Fortnite isn't much better. We'd do a lot of good by regulating these games better too. The gambling addicts who got hooked with these games will move on to DraftKings when they're older. DraftKings knows this is their pipeline and has been investing in esports and video games like Call of Duty and establishing partnerships with Riot Games and Activision Blizzard.
reply
“Let the passed be past” is ironically sage.
reply
You and the people who downvote me literally miss an entire point
reply
What is your point? Bad thing happened in the past, we should continue to let bad thing happen?

Most people find current system of gambling from phone to be too much. Forcing people to physical location and limiting advertising can be good harm reduction without causing increase in crime.

reply
Society (i.e us) is to blame. We made this stuff legal. There was no need whatsoever. We don't get to blame the people working at these companies.
reply
Everything starts out permitted. Making things illegal requires action, and enforcing laws requires the application of nonconsensual violence - a direct action.

This goes back to the trolley problem. I'm part of society, and I'm not to blame in any way for this; I had nothing to do with it.

reply
Read a little on the history of gambling in the US. It was illegal in almost all the US until recently, and could have been contained.

If you are in the US, you are to blame for the US gambling situation. We make the rules as a society.

reply
"presenting signs"...there is no way for DK to tell that someone is addicted, which is the same error of logic in the original article.

There are multiple companies that will take your money and data and say they have found a way of identifying gamblers, afaik none of these products actually or can work.

What that article showed is: someone uses a product, they do not activate any features to use the product safely, and then they it is unsafe. DK have safety features integrated with governments already in the product.

reply
If there's no way to distinguish, why was the author "made a VIP"? Or does that happen to every gambler
reply
Again, the same mistake.

Yes, it happens to every gambler who spends a lot of money. That is how VIP tiers are defined, based on how much you spend. There is no way for them (or anyone) to understand the customer's state of mind. Should it be illegal for retailers to offer customers discounts? Compulsive shopping is significantly more common than gambling addiction, do retailers target those customers?

If you never want to gamble, you tell the state regulator you never want to gamble and you will be unable to use any site.

reply
>There is no way for them (or anyone) to understand the customer's state of mind.

Maybe not their state of mind but if you have access to people's betting history you can very likely identify people who are "problem gamblers", especially if you also ask them their annual income when they become a customer (I have no idea whether they do this in the US, but they do on UK sites and will suspend your account if your betting exceeds certain thresholds).

You certainly wouldn't even AI to spot people who are chasing their losses for example.

As to whether they should be obliged to care, I'm not sure. But through public policy you can make it their problem.

reply
You get made a VIP if you lose a lot of money, not if you have a gambling problem. In fact being made a VIP is basically the only way that the company can identify problem gamblers besides self-reports (because its the only time people from the company actually talk directly to the user).
reply