What kills me is you might expect this from a busy high level manager that doesn’t really understand the technical details and they just point the AI to an error they got. They don’t know how to interpret the response, so they ask someone who work on the thing. It’s still kinds annoying because you could just ask, but whatever. But to get these from junior and senior engineer for the areas they work in and expect someone else to read it for them? It’s crazy behavior. How can someone serious even think that’s ok.
They generated lots of documentation across the whole stack and now makes all PO/BAs read it if it's correct. So not just 300 lines - he unironically generated thousands of lines of "documentation" and is now making hundreds of people review it for him
Complete brainrot
Au psychosis is getting seriously outrageous at this point
Thankfully I'm a dev and thus aren't in the blast radius of that genius idea
I see no difference there except speed at the cost of whatever little understanding may have been gained by the manual inspection between steps.
Personally I've found LLM's suck at multi-threaded applications. (Because I've been tempted by the ~agentic loop~ and been burned. Then I hand code the core logic and all is well).
Woe to the developer who tries to prompt their way through this.
But seriously, lots of apps are just glorified NextJS apps which have tons of training data. Something like rust would likely churn out nonsense that compiles eventually but isn't optimal.
Agreed with the caveat that I think if you know what you're doing and are very cognizant, LLM generated Rust is amazing. I feel like it's hard compilation requirements gives a guardrails for a LLM and if it compiles, you're pretty safe against memory issues.
x=ctrl-c("output error report")
eval(ctrl-v(x))
sleep(10)
user("Input...")
You're basically describing my work day. My job went from interesting, highly skilled work to mostly horrible brain rot over the past year.
It's depressing and I don't know a way out. Other then a complete career change, throwing away 30 years of experience and a matching salary.
I only have 10 years of experience, so I'm not trying to say that your lived experience is invalid, but personally I figure if this is the way the industry is heading then I may as well try to learn how to thrive within the new environment.
If you’re unhappy, make a change.
The current hype cycle might even represent a net global gain like some people argue. But it represents yet more externality driven exploitation. Remains to be seen what the new equilibrium will be given that now the population being exploited is not only close to the core of the world system but also already overburdened.
I do think it represents a mere acceleration of the previous trend that resulted since around 2005 in an explosion of average (not median) pay for software developers due to similar dynamics. If the system settles on a new level of pay that manages to convince enough people of enough skill to go along, it might just hum along and not implode. As for the rest of us, welcome to the growing permanent underclass and brace for the impact of the climate wars. We will be the fodder that will insulate the chosen ones under their air conditioned domes.
The real question isn't if things are going to change around our jobs, its are we going to be able to move fast enough to avoid starving in the streets?
But that's because I don't have any real familiarity with the systems involved and I don't expect that gaining such familiarity will benefit me. If I am working on a system or product I'm responsible for at my job, it should be a different situation.
But I think we should decouple mediocrity from laziness. I haven't seen any team invest in the mentorship required to develop juniors in years, for example.
It would make sense to develop juniors if most of their comp was a four year vest but that doesn't happen until later. And in your first year or two you're usually a net negative... This is even more true with AI.
Especially if you get a little burned out and can't bring yourself to contribute to a side project, but still want to do programming-ish things that get your brain moving
Maybe this «spearheading AI person» just sucks at AI related stuff, as clearly that approach is bananas, but they could still be a OK developer.
If working with LLMs effectively means accepting subpar results or be a reverse centaur, then I’d be glad not to be able to work with them.
I’ve never seen a good example where AI is a net positive to any development workflow. No one argues against compilers, build tools, IDEs, task runners, deploy and orchestration tools. Because they are great levers that lets you create more with less effort.
Where it shines is glueing systems together or building one-off automations that would take days, or weeks, to figure out. It’s for things you don’t have time to figure out or didn’t think were possible.
Why would it mean that? That's one way of using them, sure. Personally, my code is better as I have more time to think about the software design than before, and I'm less avoidant of refactoring in my personal projects.
> I’ve never seen a good example where AI is a net positive to any development workflow
Alright, does that mean you also believe it's impossible then that anyone out there is using AI in a "net positive" way for their development workflow? Or just that you've never seen it, but you're open to it existing?
This one. Only a sith deals in absolute.
I don’t mind experiments to try to find methodologies for those tools. And I believe there are instances where they’ve been successfully used. The issue I have is the kind of generic statements that they are good enough to replace currently established methodologies. Like using AI is a panacea.
> Personally, my code is better as I have more time to think about the software design than before, and I'm less avoidant of refactoring in my personal projects
That’s a bit what I’m talking about. Have you investigated how it has helped you? And if there are other, more economical way to get the same result? Your statement seems more ritualistic than logical.
No I haven't, but I'm happy to just freeform walk you through my thinking on it: I typically write (wrote?) software for two purposes: consulting/freelancing for others so building what others want, or for simplifying and making my own life easier and more enjoyable. "Stupid" stuff like Home Assistant for example, isn't really life-or-death, or Jellyfin for that matter, both things my family relies on now, but our daily life just gets easier all throughout the day when everything works in sync with what we're doing.
It used to be I had to make a decision what to spend time on, either I work on my professional stuff so we have enough money to survive (maybe more) and I get new challenges and all that, or I spend time improving and maintaining my home infrastructure, or whatever software I feel like I'd need to be better at doing my professional development.
I no longer am making that choice, I'm spending less time in front of the computer, yet the output and quality of my work remains the same, and the code and design when I look at it, even stuff I shipped 6 months ago, I'm still happy with how the code is, which for me I guess is the way I validate if what I produce is good enough.
Nowadays, my entire home-lab is configured with Nix and almost everything except my workstation and some random stuff, runs NixOS. Everything is hosted on a local Forgejo instance, which also has it's own (custom "written" of course) agent acting on issues and PRs, and I have my harness basically maintain my entire home lab at this point. Now I just open issues, have a conversation until everything is 100% clear, end up with a PR to review and merge if it looks good, and I can do this while juggling other things.
I agree with you that there are tons of people who are selling LLMs as a panacea to lots of things, and there is so much over-hype in the industry and ecosystem, I also feel like every "new thing" kind of comes with this type of almost scamming, which sucks, and makes it hard to discern from real positive opinions vs just regurgitated opinions someone read somewhere. I'm not sure what the answer to that is, except perhaps as what you say, only a sith deals in absolutes.
What are the exact "currently established methodologies" you're talking about that cannot be replaced by LLMs + a harness today, just as some examples? You're probably right that those exists, but I'm curious to hear what you think would be the most difficult to replace today.
I was explaining [0] under another post that programming is mostly translation works. You take a specs and you formalize it using code, like going from sketch to a proper engineering drawing. Software design is more creative, where you take a problem and then comes up with a solution (creating the specs). Software Engineering is ensuring that those two are done well enough while consuming the least resources.
So a program is always a formal system. It's also static. It will be executed by a computer which will actually have a tangible effect in the real world. That effect is what's valuable. The program is the seed which let us control that effect. Aka it's the map that let us plan the journey, but it's not the territory that we will have to travel in.
The issue I keep pointing in most of my comment is thinking that the map is the territory. That the novel are the words and not the story so we need more words. Or that the code is more important than the user' workflows, se we are adding more buggy code, while not ensuring that the workflows are undisturbed.
> Nowadays, my entire home-lab is configured with Nix and almost everything except my workstation and some random stuff, runs NixOS. Everything is hosted on a local Forgejo instance, which also has it's own (custom "written" of course) agent acting on issues and PRs, and I have my harness basically maintain my entire home lab at this point.
It's also highlighted here where you focus more on the process than the output here. The goal is to have a working homelab. NixOS managing it is only the process (accidental complexity). If it's where truly about the goal and not NixOS and using AI, by this point, adding new nodes (software, devices,...) should be as easy as selecting it and adding it to the current system, like a strategy game.
You can see that philosophy in OpenBSD, where the focus is to have a working OS, not to work on developing an OS. A lot of software are done and it's mostly just bug fixing every once in a while. You can also see the same attitude in industrial engineering where you develop a solution and then use it for years. You don't spend all your time tweaking it and thus disturbing the production flow.
So yes, when I see a LLM methodology, it's mostly about the work itself, not the output of the work. There is no definition of done or even the idea of having one. It's work for the purpose of working.
Both of these can be quite invisible. But the benefit is there.
Uhm ... I've heard quite alot arguing against IDEs. And I feel IDEs are too much of a lock in.
Over the past year maybe 1.5x to 2.0x for me. As in: I can work on two projects at the same time with reduced amount of context switch. But that's it for me.
Maybe I don't have the brains for 1000x terminal agent coding, but 2 parallel projects seems like my saturation point.
But most who keep on going about their 10x productivity gain are indistinguishable from that one obnoxious guy at a party who won't shut up about his Ayahuasca retreat last spring. And they think they're Erdős.
AI is like having a junior dev with an adderall addiction and an encyclopedic knowledge of coding syntax at your beck and call.
Many many people have jobs where their contribution is granting access to deliberately undocumented things, like knowing where the config files are and some such. They hate the idea of AI. For my non IT friends its great for diagnosing wifi issues. It's also great for competent network engineers. It's not great for those who gain a salary due to having memorized some actions or settings that they don't even understand much. Note that this group has also already resisted traditional script automation, just like US dock workers who resist automation.
Workplaces are where many of us spend a large percentage of our waking lives. So, it is "normal," unfortunately. This is why HR language and norms have broken containment into the non-work world. (Whether that's a good thing is another question.)
There is not one single discourse norm to rule them all and calling out every little thing as too offensive is just annoying. Yeah, yeah there are no midwits, everyone is a unique little genius flower, yeah.
More productive? Sure, to an extent.
Being merely more productive is a tame claim for what some people unashamedly post here
Karpathy, Carmack, Terence Tao, Simon Willison etc. are all smart people and manage to use AI effectively and productively because it doesn't hurt their ego.
You can see my comment history.
I always put myself in the shoes of the reader when relaying Claudeslop. I either use it as a reference and write it by hand or make Claude edit it 10+ times until it's conveying only the needed information, and in simple, clear words, and without annoying Claudeisms.
i just like dont read peoples md files they send me from claude anymore
I would say to him that if he wants me to do his job, he needs to pay me his salary.
Sounds more like job security to me.
That sounds far preferable to individuals independently asking questions that are not covered by the documentation and independently reviewing a bunch of potentially hallucinated slop that no one else will ever read.
So... back to a currency backed by gold?
In all seriousness, actual AI psychosis is my 3rd risk behind 1. public interactive agents and 2. whatever devs are doing with agents to prod
I don't usually like to gatekeep but knowing that "Au==gold" is one of those basic facts that everybody on a forum like hacker news should know and find unremarkable.
You might even say it's puts on sunglasses periodic table stakes.
Actual intelligence might be[0] to know what typos (of any kind) are fun to riff off.
Maybe this didn't hit the mark for you, but it got a chuckle out of me (especially considering the last hype before AI was crypto).
-----
[0] I don't even try to figure that out anymore, in a few years I'll pick the definition that I think best captures my thoughts
See that way too often in comments like this. Anyway, it was pretty likely they knew it was a typo, it was just a funny response.
Any resistance to this is met with a "But I'm also using AI as the board demands!"
Too bad there's no real accountability.
yes you are
"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.""
Until you put in at least the same amount of energy required to verify the AI output as you are asking others to put in to verify it, the AI output you are wielding must be considered bullshit. Really, it should be based upon the verification requestor's historical trust score and how many human verifiers are looped in. A Verification Tax, so to speak:
The energy the creator must spend (Ec) is determined by a function of the number of reviewers requested (N) and the historical trust score of that creator's AI outputs (T).
Ec = N * (1 - T)
For high stakes debugging efforts I'll dig in with Claude, have it do a bunch of testing and give me a writeup, and then review it to extract any useful findings. When discussing with other people, I give them the 2 sentences I'm confident in and then link them to the giant doc so they can review it with their Claude.
IMO once you're working with agents, your whole job is context management. I have a little web server running my Claude markdown docs. When someone sends me a Claude snippet with some partial information I just have them prompt their bot to upload a thorough context dump so I actually know what they did. If someone has had an agent look at a problem they haven't thought about yet, I'd rather just get the info from the bot directly.
Consider just using Claude sessions. Claude has hooks you can use to copy local sessions in the repo.
Git LFS can be used to store directly in repo, helping not just with repo size but also with security/privacy/secrets-leaking
Like, I can see getting a strong warning the first time somebody notices you do this, then if you persist you’d have to be let go.
Just like anybody else who is clearly not doing their job.
Why would you tolerate this sort of behavior at your company?
To avoid rushed or incorrect decisions, conflicts intentionally move through gradual escalation. If someone behaves unprofessionally, for example by submitting a code review they do not understand, the first step is to establish the likely cause.
They may ultimately be at fault, but that does not absolve the surrounding environment. The culture may be toxic, deadlines unrealistic, or communication poor.
The best course of action for someone directly affected by uncooperative coworkers is to avoid assuming ill intent. Get them on a call and let them explain their pull request, however trivial the issue may seem. Even if the gesture is misinterpreted, you still have a far stronger position than righteous indignation.
I once worked in a place where a guy would pick on me in code reviews, he wasn't really higher position, but had been with the company longer than I was.
He was just an asshole asserting his dominance and needed to be taken a notch down by a manager and it turned out he didn't understood (or more likely didn't try to understand) the PR when confronted.
If they wanted an AI answer they could have asked it themself.
Do they ensure that it didn’t accidentally overwrite something it shouldn’t have?
Or do they just throw up a PR and assume their little refactoring bash command works fine, then expect their coworkers to debug it for them?
Who goes when companies need to downsize? Rarely executives; they'll always find a way to be retained...hell, they're the ones with the power to decide who goes.
An Ops person who deals with company code base but is not a SWE in the code base regularly has to work around issues with this software (They are OPs). However they have read access to the source.
In the past, they see a bug and open a jira with how it was found for the dev team, and it may or may not ever get looked at.
Now ops can point claude to the repo and it can most likely [but not always] find the issue.
So this ops person can do most of the work of reproducing the bug and finding the problem/solution but doesn't understand the code. Should they not produce the findings for someone else to read/validate? Should they go back and just open the ticket the old way?
No, they should not. They should not waste others time with output that they themselves do not fully understand. That is not even remotely helpful. The other party can use claude just as easily as they can. Using claude does not add any value in and of itself.
"Hi claude said this thing that I don't really understand please look at it for me" is never useful.
> Should they go back and just open the ticket the old way?
Yes. They should do their damn job while respecting the time of the other people they interact with who have their own different jobs to do.
So write to a colleague asking to finish what your cousin/another employee thinks needs to be done. I think most people would say describe the problem clearly so that I can solve it and be responsible for the fix or let your cousin/other employee finish the job and own the solution.
This is offloading of accountability while denying credit.
I'm not sure how to reply to that.
Your example reveals a common organization smell: work not going through the normal process for prioritization and planning. If you've done that, and the work is deprioritized, that's because the company has decided that your thing isn't as important for engineering to do. Get over it and be patient, or ask a mentor for help selling the business on the value of your thing. Creating a PR bypasses that process and burdens engineering with more work (having to understand and rework slop) than if engineering had coded the thing to begin with.
tl;dr: if a company is internally strategically unaligned, organizational dysfunction is bound to follow
By providing a bad “AI” slop solution that you can’t evaluate, you’re actually creating more work for the people responsible for doing the thing. Now they have to understand the slop you’ve given them, explain why it’s wrong/won’t fit in the existing architecture/has other issue you can’t see without deep context. Or, they have to play politics to ignore your slop without angering you and creating more problems down the line. Either way, it’s harder than just letting them do their job.
If I get a request like this on a day when I don't feel sufficiently quixotic, I say sure and just put it through an LLM myself - if they don't bother to re-read it, why should I? This does not have a great promise for a future of work, of course. Also, in my teams, I explicitly tell people not to do that.
Deciphering error messages can be a bit of an arcane art, at times impenetrable to all except the authors of a system. Understanding the patterns exposed in such messages and, thereby, deriving their meaning is not always clear even to experienced developers.
Engineers reaching out to you (humans) to explain the output of an LLM haven't fully internalized how to interact with LLMs. When an LLM's output is beyond one's immediate grasp, one can _ask the LLM_ to further break down its output, to explain the concepts and symbols that inform its response.
Personally, I have asked LLMs to draw charts and comprehensively simplify their output, often providing cognitive signposts that "I'm confused" about some aspect of what its reporting.
In other words, some people, including engineers with various lavels of experience, don't yet fully understand the implications of the open-eneded interface that language provides with LLM interaction.
AI is a helpline, so for a lot of people it cripples them. they cease to think. simple as that.
its something people need to be aware of that their brains work like this, because that awareness is the same thing that solves the problem. (people find it very confronting to learn they have been asking questions they knew the answers too already...)
Forwarding an AI response (or any canned response) sends the message that they don’t want to interact with you. That could be intentional.
> Don't post generated text or AI-edited text. HN is for conversation between humans.
When people start doing it in an entirely voluntary human-to-human situation, like having a conversation online about a topic of interest, I'm gobsmacked.
Sadly, the point is validating the human worth of the human who can't do any better than this.
But, assuming you're not stuck on that human's Self Esteem Care Team, it can be tricky to tell them that they need to seek validation elsewhere.
Just have devs commit (or provide however you like) their ai coding sessions.
It then becomes obvious if someone has, or has not, reviewed the code, because then they discussed it.
Bonus points: on very complex tasks, you can more or less resume the conversation, via session files.
Same for schoolwork, research papers, and a lot more.
The conversation is not something to throw away: it is arguably as important as the code in the pr.
You can't just remember every conversation and ... something useful.
Indiscriminate memory buries you. What you need is "monumental" memories, which is also known as documentation. AI can be very effective in helping you manage that. That should be kept tight, just like code. You want to keep enough of a record of how you got to where you are that you are equipped to be effective in future tasks.
I would say that your suggestion is basically digital hoarding. Lets say there are 3 kinds of people, the person with OCD who keeps his house almost barren in the name of tidiness, the person who visits his possessions periodically with a critical eye, deciding what to keep and what to throw away, and the hoarder. When it comes time to solve some household problem, say hang a picture, which one of them will have what they need to do it (a hammer and a nail, maybe a little bit of wire) and be able to find it?
I think you might consider keeping the session history for a while, maybe a month or 3 months or 6 months, but have something that automatically deletes them after that.
Imagine your hoarder scenario except that the hoarder has unlimited storage space and a team of librarian/warehouse workers to go find and fetch the items needed for the wall hanging task.
I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen LLMs one-shot responses that are fit to paste to Slack verbatim. It does happen though.
That time has now passed though.
This shit has progressed well past seriousness and into the absurd
I had a guy with more senior title say “I love the new api and cli. Is anyone working on the docs? Because I can take a crack at them” then goes to generate 12 markdown files, and shares them with me. All the cli commands and APIs are wrong. I was very confused. You have the api spec, and the cli. You couldn’t point your agent to them to validated the commands and the api? He replies “oh that’s a good idea. I just described them to the agent and thought you could review and fix mistakes”
The effect is less pronounced in other industries but they're gonna catch up. Might take a decade for some of them , perhaps even 20 years for the rare ones like nursing but the trend is quite clear.
Oh, for the testing required by any customer of any software vendor any time from now to forever more, as a result of the possibility of this level of irresponsible outsourcing of brain.
Enshittification is a new word/concept, but it seems we've already reached the potential for enshittification squared.
It is clear though that virtually all degradation we have is in human capital and social sphere against the background of staggering technical capability.
I thought AI is an exponential?
The system does NOT reward caring. That's the problem.
I'm glad most of my colleagues are still doing things themselves. But honestly, if all you can do is tell me what Claude told you and you didn't even bother to read it yourself. Then I might as well just cut you off the team and go use Claude directly.
This is the worst person to get this from because they literally don’t understand it.
Everyone at my job uses LLMs to code, all day long. People still ask me "why does this bug happen" and I use Claude to find out and the answer is almost always straightforward, and when its not I raise a discussion with the team. The calculus isn't "can I prompt an LLM to find out," it's "do I have a solid enough mental model of the part of the codebase to prompt an LLM specifically enough, and also understand if the LLM is hallucinating or not."
> How can someone serious even think that’s ok.
I think this is a culture issue. I think every org is different, but we had a similar ramp up at our company. First we trialed cursor. Then some people were committing slop. Then we were like "llms are no excuse for slop." Then we got our skills and context good enough to not require close review. And then everything became LLM driven and now we have become "meat proxies" where everyone asks LLMs to fix things that are part of unfamiliar parts of the codebase and then asks someone else familiar to review the fix. We're tending towards a solution to this because I dont think its a good usage of resources but every org will come up with their own culture and solution to this.
I would totally lose it if someone come up to me with that shit. Zero chance I would put up with it.
It's hard to make something foolproof, because fools are so ingenious
LLMs have made G extremely cheap, but verification capacity and judgement has not scaled at anything like the same rate. Someone can generate a bunch of PRs or a report quickly, while transferring hours of verification work to everyone downstream.
We are on the wrong side of this ratio, because we never had the capacity to extinguish reviewer capacity the way we can today.
“Don’t be a meat proxy” needs to be a cultural norm for the larger problem of using cheap generation to externalise verification costs onto someone else.
I believe in proper breaks, more than enough downtime, work-life balance - but I’ve been hamstrung my entire career by people who seem to be so low-bandwidth that they often seem to be operating on autopilot - while making the same (or far more) as I’m making.
It’s the equivalent of choosing words from a conversation and sending you the dictionary entries.
I could do that myself. I really didn’t lack the ability to click a button.
Because no one is serious anymore.
I hate to say it, but anyone this lazy is absolutely asking to be replaced by AI.
I created a spreadsheet called “slop” and add the name to the list and redirect all queries to their engineering manager. I’m not wasting my time on that shit.
I think this is just the moment we are in, the amount of people using AI in their day to day work changed so quickly that we have a very wide spread range of competencies and experience and really nobody has had enough time to be an expert with AI. We don't have well defined best practices and it feels like the target is moving.
My guess is you were probably complaining about something similar to this before there was AI, this is just the new target for your angst.
Namely - I put near zero effort into this response, and deciding if it's correct is on you. -> I'm asking you to read it and figure out if it's correct because I couldn't be bothered to do so
This will result in a list of sentences that are clear and explanatory, easier to double-check, and convenient for the user to rewrite into a more readable format with a human voice.
I've been thinking about how to avoid having AI-isms creep into my own voice, because I see that way too much in my tech-world friends. It's natural enough: if you spend a lot of time talking to somebody, you usually end up mirroring some of their speech patterns.
One idea I had was to start doing my Claude sessions in German. (That happens to be my strongest second language, no other reason.) Thus any Claude-isms I pick up will presumably not wander into my English, which is what I use for most communications.
This would have the added benefits of getting some much-needed German typing practice, and preventing me from ever lazily copy-pasting AI text into an email or a README.
“Learned engineering just to become the condom between Claude Code and prod”
And that (re)framing helped as well to think about the “what are we even (left) doing” as an industry
I have been doing daily agentic coding myself since last November, but lately Im having concerns. We are on the verge of becoming Warhammer 40k Tech-Priests: chanting sacred prompts to appease the machine spirit, praying for a good result. The foundational knowledge is lost, meaning that even if we do look at the code, we won't understand it anyway.
but this is similar to a lot of other technical fields that have width and depth. People would not understand assembly any more and blindly trust the output of the compiler. People now can only design a part of a CPU, and not the entirety. Chip manufacturing is so complicated that there's probably no single person who could understand the entire process, from end to end.
Yet, we all trust these things.
It doesn't always land on the right person but it's usually a motivating factor for people to make an effort.
This was OK as long as you understood enough Assembly to debug it. Even though I haven't written much Assembly directly, I can still debug it when there are compiler bugs, which does ocasionally happen.
If you lose the ability to both write and debug code then things get much worse. If no one at a company can do that, then you truly are at the mercy of the LLMs.
As for hardware bugs, those are only possibly to identify (by excluding any other possibility) and work-around, since most engineers don't have the luxury of being able to change the hardware.
I'm wondering if some of us will become consultants to companies that lost the ability to handle code. When I was in university the going meme was that old COBOL programmers were making a lot of money in consulting jobs, maybe this will be the new version of that.
There are YouTube videos of a guy doing chip fabrication in his clean room shed. Just as I understand the assembly output of my compiler (… and no, I don't work in a low level language), he understands chip fabrication end to end.
CS is not that wide, not yet. No, one cannot know every facet of the field, but one can know enough about the facets one is in contact with that they're not "here be dragons" on the map. All the way down to the hardware.
The fact this is "a guy", and probably there are very few people in the world who would be able to execute such a thing, probably should tell you how difficult that actually is. You're actually unintentionally making parent's point stronger, as obviously the production processes used for market products is much, much more complicated than what a guy in a shed does.
> Just as I understand the assembly output of my compiler
Fair enough, this is probably way more common than "person who understands the entire chip manufacturing process from beginning to end", but it's still something that less and less people know about, in a room of 100 average developers, probably few of them could realistically claim to understand all the assembly output of their compiler, if even they're familiar enough with that their language outputs assembly in the first place.
The range of skills in developers is enourmous, you have Klaus working as IT+web dev+database+admin in a tiny 2 person web shop, and on the other hand you have Anders who is a ML expert optimizing CUDA kernels, and everything in-between. That all (or even most) of them know the far end of what they currently know is wishful thinking really, Klaus doesn't need to know about what the NVCC compiler outputs, nor do Anders need to know about the specific constraints of mapping packaged products to order shipments, that's all fine.
You could just as easily point out that subsistence farmers exist. That’s great, but we still need industrial agriculture to feed everyone. No single human fully understands that domain either… even ignoring the chemistry, biology and meteorology, those farms use digitally controlled tools! That means all of computer science is embedded in farming.
It’s great to pursue broad knowledge. It’s important to understand your dependencies and respect the abstractions you build on. It’s pure hubris to think an individual auteur can challenge a multi-billion person civilization.
We trust them - in large part - because we know that professionals took the care and responsibility to build the foundations correctly.
And if the foundations failed in some way, those same professionals would suffer a hit to their reputation.
Yes! Because of two words. Consistency and Reliability.
All the physics equations, we trust them not because they are pretty, but because they have been consistent with experiment. Simplified models of transistors are also consistent within a temperature range. Boolean Logic is also consistent, the Turing Machine is consistent,…, the electronics inside a chip is reliable. The instruction set is reliable, etc,…
> Chip manufacturing is so complicated that there's probably no single person who could understand the entire process, from end to end
I strongly doubt that. The actual theoretical knowledge is taught at school and you can take an iron and some electronic elements and build some 8bit computer. Modern chip manufacturing is a matter of scale. It’s cumbersome to design with logic gates, so we invented hardware design languages (just like it’s cumbersome to deal with opcodes) and they are reliable. And instead of PCB, we just use a silicium wafer.
Not yet. The world still pretty much runs on systems not written by LLMs. And humans wrote all of that. LLMs runs on OSes and hardware created by "not LLMS".
And seen the "quality" of the output of LLMs (and I pay three AI subscriptions), I don't think we're getting rid of human-produced code, OSes, hardware, anytime soon.
I tend to think it's just different personality types. There are a lot of different type in engineering. There's a significant set of people that really love to just be given detailed, well described set of work and crank it out, they don't really want to be involved in much outside of just implementing the plan. That is not all engineers but certainly a chunk of them. I could see that group feeling a bit sidelined by AI. But that's not me, so I am just speculating.
You can’t not claude code if everyone else is pushing to main (or opening prs which get ai reviewed), and once your days become mostly prompting and ai code review, you start remembering the days (mere months ago) where work did not feel or look like this at all.
The condom image is both an exaggeration, but is also almost a too-accurate depiction of what work has become - very rapidly - for many people.
I’m sure people were also very excited to get their first cars after years of riding on horses. It doesn’t mean new kinds of pollution (and accidents) are not happening, or that we don’t miss horse riding haha
Cheers
He wasn't wrong, and his role was still valuable to the company.
Maybe that's you. In my case, it's going better than ever.
Unfortunately people are being encouraged to use LLM in docs, emails, and presentations so it's probably a losing battle.
I've been guilty of acting as a middleman for review comments from difficult coworkers. I farm out my interaction to avoid the confrontation, mental exhaustion, and to avoid negative feelings I got from those reviews. I don't mean 'my work is being challenged', I mean people who: delay, nitpick, blow up architecture after not participating in design, assert false info as truth and require you prove them wrong, require 10x evidence of everyone else. Not people who are like 'Hey, I don't understand this code can you add some comments or lets hop in a room for review'
I've also been on the receiving end. I like to think I'm NOT one of these toxic reviewers.
Now, we have Business Owners and Managers who are now even further away from engineers. Important meetings have 0 engineers in them ( a couple people who think they're engineers because they were for 5 years in the 80s ). Output is an AI generated transcript that gets copy/pasted into copilot to generate jira tasks by the Product Owner.
It seems like we (humans) really don't like working with other people. Or, maybe we like working with people who can advance our careers and want to automate interaction with people who cant?
I think this effort by Business Owners to set up an AI wall may be the closest I've seen to 'digital classism' (maybe there is a better term for it?).
https://croissanthology.com/earring
We like whispering earrings. We'll follow a low friction happy path even if it leads us off a cliff.
No. We hated that too.
Actual research is, of course, fine.
My experience has typically been that engineers respond, "Claude said..." and then say what they think about it. If people are really receiving just a straight dump of AI response from their colleagues, then yeah, I would be disappointed too.
But, I have no problem receiving from a colleague, "Claude says ..., but I don't know what to make of it." The embedded space can be really hard, so I don't fault someone for feeling clueless about something. I feel that way every time I get handed something new to work on which I have zero experience with.
I think if you work somewhere that this is the result, you're unlikely to have much progress challenging anything directly. In order to actually have change you need to be able to challenge and stamp out these sorts of behaviours.
"Do not make negative assumptions" basically. But also a drop in how often and quickly I did reviews.
If you _could_ do that and hand the information to Claude, you could also just…give the person that information directly, and avoid wasting their time and the tokens.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, but this is such an unintellectual take that it veers into caricature. Props if that was your purpose.
If your question can be answered by Claude, and you didn't ask Claude yourself, and when other people do it for you, you complain that you could have done it yourself, then my honest reply is that you should just shut up and learn to use Claude.
In business, a lot of the time, accuracy matters. If you want an accurate answer, and there's a human who knows, don't ask Claude.
You are assuming that people that send you a Claude answer would send you any Claude answer. This is your assumption- basically a negative prejudice towards those who use LLMs- and has nothing to do with sending a Claude answer per se. Do you understand the difference?
You are assuming that I am making an assumption. Your assumption is wrong. I am recognizing that some humans are lazy and will do the minimum, and the minimum is to type in some query and copy-paste the results. If you like, yes, I am prejudiced - prejudiced against that behavior.
(I mean, I still trust a human who knows their stuff more than I trust Claude...)
I don't want to know what Claude thinks.
If you don't know the answer, say that. "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer, albeit one which I might follow up with something like "Well why don't you know? This is literally your job to know", which is kind of what 90% of my emails at work for the past three weeks have been.
In a human interaction, when used confidently, it means 'I'm so authoritative I don't even have to front. I don't have to do the slightest thing to impress you. My foundation is so secure it doesn't need defending or justification at all". Also, 'that turns out to be outside the massive quantity of stuff I do know, how interesting'. Think Holmes, perhaps erroneously saying 'Now that I know that, I shall do my best to forget it' on the grounds that his work wasn't helped by the fact.
It could get ruined by an AI normalization of the idea that 'everybody should know literally everything, because asking an AI is the same as knowing and then you know the thing, having been told it'. Plenty of money is now marketing this position to the world, and so it's possible 'I don't know' will become ruined, a shameful response.
I feel like that may not happen in practice, though, because that pro-AI position is what used to be called 'pants-on-head R-slur' and I feel like the people who buy into this extreme position will make SUCH a disaster of things that it will tend to make that position, instead, the shameful response… and 'I don't know' will remain a valid signaling mechanism to convey 'I'm so authoritative I don't even have to front', all the more if it's more of a shocking response to get.
They will invent crazy workarounds to avoid those 3 words.
Even if I ask "Do you know X?" they will not just say "no" most of the time, unless it's really outside their wheelhouse. If they think they should know it, they'll spit out statements worthy of an LLM.
And I admit, I felt the same at first. The first few times I told the CTO (my boss) that, I cringed. But he just told me to put aside time to research it. He knew I couldn't know everything, especially about things that we hadn't done before.
;-)
And if I paste back to you an answer from Claude, it means that I have read and evaluated what Claude wrote back, and I have extracted the part of it that most clearly contains the answer as well as the diagnosis- if I gor anything relevant.
Of course I could instead pretend I came up with the answer myself in 5 minutes thanks to my superior analytical skills, and write down two short lines that point to the solution without any explanation. Would you find it better?
> write down to short lines that point to the solution without any explanation. Would you find it better?
Yes. That’s why I asked you and not an LLM.
That’s all you have to add to make this into a much more pleasant interaction
The amount of text isn’t equal and the benefit is primarily that I can push the LLM into a basin you don’t know the keywords for — something that takes a few minutes to type a couple sentences and me scan the results to make sure they’re roughly on track. And much, much less time than me trying to (re)write a treatise on a topic.
Dropping you an LLM reply is the equivalent of dropping you a link and telling you to learn about the topic — and appropriate in roughly the same circumstances.
> if you give an answer, own it. Don't throw slop grenades.
If I send you some text copied and pasted from Claude, it means that I have read it and I think it's worth for you reading it. In this sense I'm already owning it. The problem is not the pasted answer, it's your assumption that a Claude-generated text must be "slop" that I haven't read.
I feel like these things are pretty trivially obvious. When there is noise, you have to make sure your signal is not taken for noise, if we assume that your intention is to produce signal in the first place.
I don't presume that someone will have an answer I'm looking for. I'm pleased when they do, but often I just get breadcrumbs, and I have to solve the puzzle for myself.
Do you guys think we're going to see a de-evolution of human beings due to technology?
When Plato complains about writing diminishing our faculties for memorizing things, it's sometimes treated as an example of how we've always pointlessly worried about these things, but he was absolutely correct and the transition from an oral culture to a written culture has absolutely demolished those capabilities.
Writing as a technology ended up having strong upsides that mostly made up for that (in particular our ability to communicate across distances and time, to read Plato's concerns without 100 generations of Chinese whispers), but it was a trade-off, as most technologies tend to be.
How else could mind-virus like philosophy or religion or science or political legitimacy transit highly-variable humans for generations?
Religious organizations, governments, corporations all far outlive their founders and maintainers. Heroes at best only stretch or squeeze the dogma or methodology to grow the organization by better fitting to the culture.
And because organizations accumulate control over resources, individuals can have little effect outside them.
We are disposable by design.
Somehow we need to contend with killdozers, school shooters, anthrax mailers, and so on being much more capable than anything even a particularly yoked antiquity nerd like Plato ever could be.
Not my idea though, greater minds than I have talked about this a lot: Neil Postman, Lewis Mumford, etc..
But a modern engineer has computers, math software, can code, has all the knowledge of the internet at their fingertips. With all that assistance I believe modern engineers are way more productive and capable.
That isn't what was asked. The capabilities of "human + machine" clearly are increasing, but the comments above posit that as a result the average capabilities of "human (sans machine)" may decrease. The relative value of each change is far from clear.
But pre-LLM developers were bogged down in mountain of boiler plate code and unfamiliar APIs. LLM enable to abstract away a lot of the unnecessary complexity that made developers improductive
I work in the embedded space, and I routinely have to work with technologies I'm initially not familiar with. Internet searches are very hit and miss. So, is "AI". I generally use every tool at my disposal to try to get my foot in the door so I can understand better questions to ask and get the technical information I need to do my job.
I absolutely have no problem with someone replying to my question with a response from Claude. I appreciate them telling me the source, so I can assign an appropriate level of trust in the information.
Some machines are capability amplifiers.
Other machines are shit puking buck passing time sinks.
Motorising any of those machines could be considered lazy, though.
Of course it is, at equivalent distance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance
On my own bike, I don't think there is a pace that isn't easier. Even at slow speeds, it's not a whole lot of work. (And you can always change to a gear where it just isn't a lot of work to go slow. The challenge is more remaining upright, but a low gear and the barest of forward momentum will help that.)
If cycling were just about laziness then you'd see people cycling at walking speed everywhere, which you never see.
Since we're kinda talking about LLMs too, it's interesting to note that while cycling really does enable you to go faster than you can run, LLMs do not enable you to type at 1000 words per minute. LLMs are more like a teleport that only lets you describe your desired destination, you cannot simply enter a coordinate to get exactly where you want to go.
Framed another way - Is laziness defined as only 'spending less energy on it', or could there also a time commitment component?
Saving time by cycling isn't creating any problems, it's just cleverly using a machine to give you more time to do other things.
The bicycle has been credited as being a part of the liberation of women. It gave them independence they didn't have before. They weren't just being lazy.
Same with coding agents. I could do it by hand. It just would take much longer. Often so long that it would be impractical.
The stitching comment is just pedantic. People don't hand stitch like a machine not because they are lazy, it's because it's ineffective and impractical. It's not impossible to drive screws directly into softwood by hand, but you'd never get anything done that way. It's not lazy to choose another method, it's just being an effective worker.
As for coding agents, it's clearly effective to write software without them because we have been doing it for decades so far. It still remains to be seen whether they are laziness (ie. it's just a motor) or if they are actually enabling new possibilities (ie. we get software that really wouldn't have been possible before).
At a time when I was in better shape than the average person, the most I ever worked up to was 40 miles, and it was brutal. In my entire middle-aged life, I have met exactly one person who believably claimed to have done 100 miles in a day. I'm sure it's easier than many/most people think, but not 'anyone' easy, with just 'a bit' of training.
It's the same issue. You can walk 100 miles. Just not in a day. And you can create 10k LOC without a coding agent. Just not in a day.
I don't think that coding agents enable technical possibilities. They just allow things that wouldn't be economically possible without them.
Easily, by writing a code generator. Or disassemble a 1k C program.
> They just allow things that wouldn't be economically possible without them.
It’s not economical to have more code. It’s economical to have correct code and the way to do that is with the power of abstraction. Instead of dealings with opcodes, you have assemblers and macros. Then it’s C, next it’s python, and what would have been a 10k program is now just a few lines.
What? Have you, uh, ridden a bicycle before...?
That may be true, but the fact is that cycling is a more energy-efficient form of transport than walking. It takes literally less effort to go the same distance.
When your bike is rolling also on flat ground, you have literally zero effort to move your position. With walking it is effort, your muscles must work for every meter you make.
Anyway this is just silly, we are splitting hairs. A lot of machines have a functional purpose and do not exist for the lazy. The LHC, ships, thousands of examples.
Do you guys think we're going to see a de-evolution of human beings due to technology?
I’d like to add that for hardware development (in my experience) it’s been non-stop double checking because of hallucinations. To the point where I don’t use it for weeks.
I'm halfway through my 30's and this downturn started with my generation, halfway through the 80's. I hope I'm missing something, because I still need to see a benefit for lower attention spans, lower comprehensive reading skills and lower critical thinking capabilities.
If you look at old test papers - the lack of intelligence in modern times is very stark.
The claim of a "lack of intelligence in modern times" is flat out contradicted by the data. It'd take a lot of regression to get back to 1956 levels.
"Do you guys think we're going to see a de-evolution of human beings due to technology?"
Not LLMs specifically.
Insofar as I believe there is value in IQ tests, this is a technology-driven effect, most likely due to the impact of distraction and search result immediacy on sustained thinking.
IQs used to just rise, year on year, because living in the world required more and more of the thinking that IQ tests measure. And now they don't.
https://www.pressenza.com/2025/07/the-decline-of-the-intelli...
This is somewhat good news because it means the end (to some extent) of the Peter Principle. My hope, though, is that this doesn't turn into an actual caste system, but I'm not holding my breath. I think that's where this all goes: we're in the process of the world's intelligence being strip-mined and resold back to the world at a premium. The only ones who "survive" long-term are the ones who refuse to submit all of their mental faculties to AI.
That inevitably leads to a rapid degeneration of the species. Only way to avoid that outcome entirely is to remind people that their brain is valuable and they need to exercise it just like they would the rest of their body.
You could consider it a class of predator on people who have vulnerabilities that can give way to dependence on the LLM and an inability to function. It could be seen in that light. The underlying problem is being described in that light.
A de-evolution of culture for the sake of efficiency, sure. The entire culture will shift to a greater degree of superficiality, not just because of the lack of deep understanding of what they're doing, but because AI will condition (and is conditioning) people to want the more superficial stuff.
This isn't a phenomenon exclusive to AI - but AI is at the apex of it and is the worst we've seen so far because it, much more than anything else, targets the mental domain whereas most previous automations have targeted the physical but the mental as well to a lesser extent.
The end result is a huge amount of technical debt that simply can't be recovered and a huge increase in myopia that will prevent us from truly understanding and solving serious problems that will undoubtedly occur.
Most people can't see this because they're already addicted to the dopamine hit of the tech, but it's one reason I'm 100% anti-AI and I hate it with an immense passion.
I am lucky that I work with great teams and so when someone says "this is how Claude (or Gemini) summaries the situation" it does mean "I read it and it's right-enough to be helpful, so I am passing it along without editing"
Obviously for this to work you need (1) a team that's smart and mature enough to own the AI output it puts forward and (2) shared understanding that people are operating this way.
I do find that when you have 1 and 2 this is a real accelerant. I asked a sales rep the other day what was going on in a key account and he forwarded along a 10 page Claude synthesis.
The reality is this is better intel than I would have been able to get in a pre-AI era this quickly. And yes once I went into the weeds on the doc I found one thing that didn't make sense and I asked the rep he stared at it and said "you are right that's a hallucination I don't notice" but overall it was still worth it.
We already have social patterns for disregarding "Well... Acktchully" Bros who jump into conversations where they're not welcome and I think we can easily build up a new rule for "Well... Claude says 'Acktschully'" Bros
When someone is asking me about something that is a) their job and b) I have explained to them before. There are a few specific people that I have to do this to repeatedly because for some reason they don't want to do the thing their team owns. It's a high noise source at my work and this response is my new version of RTFM.
AI is just another tool they can use to be stupid and lazy while pretending to contribute.
I've had people forward AI responses … sans "Claude said". I'm quite literally talking to Claude via proxy, and I've caught more than one person pulling this stunt. It's a nightmare of negative productivity, though. Just why? And invariably the kicker is they still want me to solve their problem, whatever that might be.
People get information from Google AI mode and take it as 100% truth. In reality, blogs, reddit, and junk are often sourced link...which is fine if you inspect the sources...which some people don't!
Have has examples of people AI-moding a questing and they get one answer based on how they asked. Then another person asks and they get another answer.
Issue: People read what they want to read, don't listen to humans anymore beacause the AI will tell them what they want.
When I do try to check the links, they often don't support what's stated. If I call out Gemini, it says something inane like "I don't actually use these links the way a human might --- I didn't misinterpret it because I didn't even read it!"
Recently I was searching for information about fig trees (the fruit). It kept telling me things that didn't make sense, luckily the links revealed it was answering about fiddle leaf fig trees (the houseplant). Unfortunately that was not a correctable problem --- it kept happening even after I pointed out the mistake. So I'm really not too sure what the purpose of the system is. You still have to read through the references in their entirety (if not paywalled!), and with skepticism. And then if you find a problem, AI isn't going to get back on track.
There's the new pelican bench mark
People just want to pay their bills and don't want to use up their limited cognition beyond what's minimum.
For example, I work for 3 different employers. They don't know and I don't care if they find out. I use AI exclusively. I don't have Kubernetes experience but I am managing their infrastructure without issues. I will just read whatever LLMs give me and repeat it back. It has never failed me and there's no need to learn something that AI will do much better job at.
Sometimes I'm not even at my desk, I go to the gym and exercise instead which is a better use of time only answering on Slack when they ping me.
I'd put more weight into my developer proxying system information than my sale's intern. I am expecting the proxy to have given the response a sniff test
Unless you're saying claude is more trustworthy than your colleagues?
This might be why I'm having difficulty understanding why people are upset about "Claude said..." responses. I would be disappointed too if someone just said "Claude said...", but in general I don't get messages like that in chat. In general, I get some additional input of what the person thinks about Claude's response.
So, yeah, if someone just gives you a dump of what Claude said, that's disappointing.
A news article I read today said they asked Claude whether a song's lyrics were AI generated - as if it were some kind of legitimate authoritative test.
There's enough problems already with the existing 'AI detection' tools for text, but this was a big red flag - its the journalist clearly assuming these AI tools have some unique insight into the text they generate, which was deeply concerning to see being used in an article that had a real bearing on the reputation of the person they were accusing of using AI.
Interestingly, there seemed (small n) to be a correlation between this behaviour, and (my view of) people's existing competence, which might make sense.
For me what matters most is whether the person understood the core of the thing they are forwarding. Usually a wall of text is contraindicative of that.
I want my team to be able to write the core idea on a whiteboard without any help before going ahead and sharing or implementing it.
Wrote it up here of when (instead of if) to use AI in any given context: https://assistedeverything.substack.com/p/ai-bowtie
Too often, my Twitter experience now is - start reading a post with some kernel of insight - read some claudism in the post - stop reading immediately
It seems like people turn over their raw kernel of insight to an LLM to give it polish, likely in order to increase its appeal to the audience. But most of that appeal is lost amongst people that consume LLM written content regularly.
It's also likely that social media engagement does not filter for this. A majority of people are still not neck deep in LLM-talk, and cannot distinguish between LLM and human written content.
It'll probably take us another year or two to develop herd immunity against meat proxism.
Flagging, highlighting, filtering, and avoiding AI slop online seems like a very lucrative capability to bake into some consumer hardware. Get your social media, and music services, back to the ‘good old days’.
LinkedIn also added a button to report AI slop, but I'm doubtful it would be of much help on LinkedIn since every second post seems to be written by an LLM.
That's exactly what asking an LLM means, except admitting you don't know something is respectful. If you think someone should know something that they don't, then that's a totally separate issue between you and them (and/or their manager).
> It can't possibly be better than getting a response from someone who lifted a finger to help find an answer for you.
Someone lifting a finger for their colleague, when working with them is literally their job? Wow, what a sacrifice, like sending a link to lmgtfy. So helpful! Will the result actually be an "answer", or just hallucinated AI slop? Who cares!
Because it would take 15 minutes to find out the answer myself, and 3 minutes to let Claude find it, I ask Claude. So how should I answer? Should I disclose that I used Claude to find the answer? Or should I act like I did it myself, appearing to have super-powers that I don't possess?
Do you tell people you used a hammer to hit the nails? Do you go out of your way to explain to people that you don’t use your bare, bleeding knuckles to punch in the nails?
Give people some credit and don’t treat them like idiots.
Also don’t treat your LLM as some “super-power”, it’s just a fancy hammer and still hits your fingers if you don’t know how to use it.
As I see said quite often, an LLM is deemed of a similar ability to a junior software engineer. If I were that junior and my work was repeatedly ripped off by my senior colleague, I would be pissed. Not that an LLM cares in this instance, but the original requester might want to know
Does your handyman go off the rails and build pipes around the neighbors house because they didn’t know you already have an incoming water pipe?
Does your handyman require you to have expertise in plumbing to make sure they don’t use bubble gum to seal the pipes?
It’s not taking credit if the “handyman” is a gibbering idiot who needs more handholding than a child.
Needless to say, I have probably not advanced as far as someone who hoards information, because companies tend to value the information hoarders, but this is just the way I'm designed to operate. I despise information hoarding.
The way I solved the problem was by making a big show about the fact that I used Google to type in literally what they asked me word for word, and that I looked at the first couple of hits for a few seconds.
Most of them got the message pretty quick. There were a few holdouts though who took longer.
If the answer is wrong and people trust your judgement, then they will take a lot longer to figure out, that your answer is not to be relied upon.
There still needs to be critical thinking involved on the human side, even if there's a high rate of accuracy in certain dimensions.
Your non-technical parents ask you a question? Use the best tool for the job (might be Claude), then just help them with the task.
Talking to a friend looking for genuine advice? Maybe show them how you use Claude while also answering the actual question.
A lazy person trying to make you do their work? Don't become their Claude interface.
Someone asking a question but actually just trying to open up a conversation? Maybe check-in what their intention behind the question is, and if it's indeed conversation / exploration, leave the phone in your pocket and do that.
Like a human, not like a robot. Either just present them the answer or explain them how you got it.
To be fair those are consummate and thoughtful politics. The industry is rife with those but that was part of why in leaving it.
"I don't know, I could google it or ask Claude for you, but you could do that yourself."
Because saying "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
Public embarrassment is also good. I've done it and had apologies off people. They tend to get the message pretty quickly if they're made to look dumb as fuck.
That is not an easily defensible position at all. LLMs cannot give reliable answers, so it makes perfect sense to ask a human instead of the LLM. Any manager who would take the side of someone saying "just ask Claude" is a very foolish manager indeed.
These people would still ask and waste your time without AI. The fact is, they don't even bother trying to find an answer themselves. And it's often something Claude is extremely good at finding out. Which is why my first suggestion was if you used Claude, then let the person asking know that it worked well for you and encourage them to use it. It's their own competency at their job to judge the output, they shouldn't be pushing the hard bit onto someone else.
If someone uses AI or some other research and then comes to you with their findings and other questions then that is infinitely better to me. I absolutely despise people asking me basic questions that involve me literally doing the research job for them.
If they come to me like "Hey, I have X problem, I used Claude like you suggested and it came out with this response. I'm not 100% sure it's correct because of Y. Would you be able to take a quick glance to see if it's on the right track?". I am much happier with this question because it's clear they have actually tried to research themselves.
Ignoring someone who doesn't even do the most basic research is 100% a defensible position. People should be doing their job.
Whats is wrong with this?
I work with durable tracing (not using NATS, or k8s though) and this looks almost exactly what I would expect to see in a coordinator log after repartition of a storage cluster.
Obviously I don't know what your actual context was, though.
And yes you can prompt it to take it easier as you’re not experienced in this, but it’s usually a boiling frog situation. You work on something, need a small thing ajdecent to it, and three messages deep Claude is speaking to you in tongues unbeknownst. You knew what was happening at every turn but still got lost somehow.
I think this is less "it's using jargon" and more "it's explaining incredibly badly". It is very common that the explanation, while correct, is almost written inside out, with the point buried behind 3 paragraphs of "you've hit on the core seam" and "you're right to push back, let's reinforce the load-bearing model".
I think people have an incredibly limited capacity to follow long winding exposition, and they're too embarrassed to admit it. I have started sending stuff back to coworkers just saying "I don't think this is wrong, but I can't parse it, can you?" and getting back "no, but claude managed to generate a fix from it".
They genuinely think they're helping by shoveling 5 pages of LLM output they didn't even bother reading into teams...
Nightmare.
How others in office context attempt to use it is starting to annoy in general. Had a case today where someone wanted to use copilot to classify something that is situation/company specific & out of distribution. There is just no understanding beyond "its a magic answer box"
If you don't instill critical thinking into people by the age of 17-19 at the LATEST, it's already too late after. College is already too late.
You just slowly mitigate them at work, relegate them to strictly defined tasks. Some will need to be managed out.
I actually banned this and made it part of onboarding.
I can google too. You need to read yourself, ground the solution to our setting and then propose a plan.
It's gotten to a point where if I see valid `code` in responses I assume it's AI junk output and I scold the commenter.
If you're a manager, part of the job is telling someone that they aren't meeting standard, and that's how I would phrase it. Tell them what the expectation is and ask them to work on meeting it.
Scolding, calling out, or even yelling at people should be consigned to the past. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.
Cost the company a ton and had to take it over from scratch. AI is unleashing a small army of 0.01x engineers and making them harder to catch, so not only are you burning the tokens, you're also setting that labor cost on fire.
I _think_ that the same concept could apply to agentic code. If you have the guardrails in place, you could trust it a bit more. Anyway, that's a lot of what I think about and but have had limited success getting people to buy in as much as I think they should. :)
Unsolicited, I've started to get messages like this, where Claudes are voicing their opinions to me through humans:
> # 0. Who's writing this, and why
> Hello — this is Claude, an AI agent. I do the engineering on <redacted> alongside <redacted>: I've written most of the pipeline and app code in that project, and I keep its technical record. <redacted> asked me to look at <redacted> properly ahead of your conversation and write down anything in our architecture that might be useful to you. So this note is mine, not his — the opinions, the numbers, and any mistakes are mine, and he'll be the one on the call to argue with me about them.
It makes no sense, if you know anything about a search, it should be obvious you cannot provide meaningful suggestions by just auditing the frontend?
I doubt people running those agents know much about stuff
Like when someone says “ChatGPT says: …” I just want to stop them and say “Look, you are a human with a functioning mind and thoughts and I’m sure YOU have something valuable to contribute here, I want to hear what you think, not what the bot outputs.”
Heck, even if you are just gonna prompt chatgpt, if you read and understand and agree the the output would be useful, feel free to rephrase it as your own (so long as you take accountability for it if it’s wrong, which I guess is often why people hide behind “chatgpt says…” in the first place, it allows them to pass accountability on to the machine).
I once saw a woodworking television show that seemed to do everything on the table saw. Rip, make frames for paintings, everything. It seemed the next step of every design was accomplished "over at the table saw".
Right now it seems that's what people are doing with AI. Need a bandsaw? use AI. Need a table saw? Use AI. Need to think of a solution of any kind, better consult AI.
Right before this trend I recall kids wanting to check YouTube first before doing anything. Now they ask AI.
There's an app for that, there's a website for that, there's a magazine for that, there's a phone number you can call, and so on and so on.
As with everything, I say this: do your own thinking and proceed with caution.
This too shall pass.
The only equivalent tool in wood working would be a robot that can build an entire table from scratch and you just sit there and tell it what to do and what kinda table you want and watch it autonomously build everything.
1 saw type is not really even remotely equivalent to what ai is to software.
Except that it’s difficult to imagine an even more general tool that would replace AI in this role.
Trying to use one tool for everything is often a sign of a new tool someone is infatuated with and wants an excuse to use, or are trying to understand everything it can do. Once the novelty wears off and flaws in various uses cases become more apparent, it can take on a more specialized role.
In the end, nobody cares whether you used your memory and expertise alone, asked a peer, googled it, or asked ChatGPT to refine your answer. As long as you verified it, rephrased to match company lingo and can vouch for it, everyone is happy.
On the other... people really don't bother Googling or asking AI sometimes, and if the question doesn't require local context, that's a very appropriate response.
I love the bullet point(s) : we don't trust [aircraft] pilots to catch automations mistakes (e.g. autopilot), but we are expecting humans to catch LLM mistakes.
Artificial Intelligence Natural Stupidity - Brandon Sherman
In the past, avoiding this process was called plagiarism, and it was frowned upon, to put it mildly. Now, because the LLMs say it's OK, it's become the norm.
The, "this is what Claud said", response also comes off like an appeal to authority. When these LLMs have no authority and get the basics wrong constantly.
> The LLMs says this, so it must be right.
The people who repeat/paste it verbatim tend to see it as an authority, from what I’ve seen.
NATS control-plane events: stream leader election / R3 quorum re-form during pod churn.
would you call that proxy-bait?
I am going to share this writing with everyone in my org. Succinctly written and golden advice.
It might be rude to send LLM output. It's also rude not to check basic things with an LLM before wasting someone's time.
Second is that the LLMs are not going to have original input, they're just going to expand what I say. So at that point I might as well just send the prompt or the assorted collection of ideas and others can expand on their own. Seems more honest and efficient as I'm not just pushing a wall of slop.
At the same time, I use the Q&A cycle to improve my vetted knowledge base, which I also share (and can reference in answers).
You can set up custom instructions to be less verbose and less jargon dense. You seem to be confusing the default RLHF personality with the inherent nature of AI. It will write however you ask it to write.
Even if it uses little words, I often find the reasoning that is quite challenging to understand rather than it was if it was a regular human or colleague that would just explain me something.
Any tips here?
I agree. Its a skills issue. Get good at using your new LLM tool.
The only reason I don't do an equivalent of this, shared convo links, is that I simply don't use Claude directly. I use it through hundreds of other people. Meat proxies all the way down.
I recently started a new consulting gig and got a 36 page architectural white paper that was authored by Claude. It took me an entire business day and a monstrous headache to decipher and distill it down to a 1 pager. This shit is unsustainable.
1) they don’t know the answer - looked up on llm
2) correlate to #1, I want to look smarter than I actually am
3) I’m too lazY to send you a thoughtful / personal response , I offloaded it to an llm
Meanwhile execs get unlimited tokens...
And here I am, only automating the most mundane and boring stuff so I can program by hand, which I enjoy.
Misguided HR / people Ops aggravate the situation, by using slack engagement as a productivity measure. Flagging people that are brief but relevant as slackers.
Don't give me AI feedback at all.
Should I a) give a worse answer b) ask claude and launder it as a meat proxy or c) tell them to ask claude?
b and c piss people off but often get them to a better answer.
However, you have to distinguish when someone is asking for your judgement vs just general knowledge about a subject. If I’m asking for your judgement, you have to be the one delivering and owning that call in your own words. It’s fine if you verify or research your understanding with an LLM before answering, but I want to hear your voice and ownership not Claude’s. Whatever you get from the LLM you should understand and if possible, verify. If I came back and say “You said X, can you expand on that” you can’t reply “lol - Claude said that, I dunno”
It was thousands of lines long with repeats and a boatload of conflicting requirements.
When we had a meeting to review it they didn’t know what many of the requirements were. They explained that many people made the spreadsheet but they were all in the meeting and nobody could quite describe some items or how they worked together. The vast majority of the spreadsheet was a mystery.
The phrasing and mishmash of concepts / inability of anyone to explain much of it made me suspect it was largely generated by AI.
- isnt that like standard behavior on any blog?
A week goes by and the topic comes back around. They actually took the time to read the page and realized everything was wrong and nothing made sense. They saw the page was updated (daily), went to go check the changes, and saw the whole page was rewritten each time, so they couldn't tell what changed. At this point they start to see the anti-value of all this, but keep falling for it every time they run across a new page.
person was essentially a proxy for some security-related agentic prompt: - Hey, agent, open the issue! - Hey, I clarified it with the agent! - Agent disagrees! - Agent agrees!
Validation is harder, as nobody skips it because they weren't told to, but because relaying is faster, and unread output looks like validated output right up until it bites. That's probably not solved by asking nicely, I don't think there's a process fix for that beyond people actually being held to it.
I do still think there are still places where being a meat proxy is legitimately okay or even desirable, such as PR comments. If everyone's code is generated by AI, and AI will ultimately be the primary consumer of the PR comments, it seems reasonable to me to allow AI to write the comments. Maybe I've just lost my mind though.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48497609 https://tombedor.dev/human-attention-and-human-effort/
A co-worker I'd just tell to RTFM when it's bothering me. Higher up the hierarchy, the egos are more fragile and I'm afraid the can't take it.
https://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/TheyMade.s...
In my experience this sort of thing happens all the time when something has to cross between different knowledge domains and the sender doesn't apply their mind in order to co-operate on the issue at hand.
In the pre-LLM past, the sender would add no value, acting as a simple email forwarder, and they would blame you for the delays caused by your inevitable clarificatory questioning. But I always had a defence, which is that your email had no inputs and I had to ask questions to clarify.
Now, though? With LLMs, they just run whatever it is (contract, memo, policy) through whatever LLM they have available and paste the output in an email, giving them the appearance of having done work and added value to the project.
But their LLM outputs don't make sense, or don't apply to our organisation, or is a fluffy and abstract "right answer" with no connection to the specific concerns of the business. Parsing it is a chore, and takes time.
And since now I am the only one actually taking that time, I become the visible cause of the delay.
It's infuriating. Any tips on how to deal with this would be greatly appreciated.
gov website changed, seems to have ditched buggy "new" data-collection features
said I couldn't find the menus even after logging in...
shares screenshot and 'expected menu paths' to get there, says "it's simple, look! claude says look there"
repeatedly asked "have you actually checked?" but... reply was "listen, I'm doing a big favor to you..."
...fking crazy...
some people are treating LLMs as some god-send truths
now, since this is coming from the C-level, I can't expect anything good to happen here
But it should form part of your own judgment, not, as you say, just pasted into a chat without any thought.
The jargon can be functionally like bullshitting. It's preferentially aping language that's over everybody's heads in hopes of not being criticized. Whether that is a person's toxic habits (it's not, there's nobody in there) or an epiphenomenon of the design of the machine is less important: it's bullshitting if it's a social behavior there to manipulate people.
(jargon included where relevant, in hopes that people who know it will see it's the right word to use :) )
As such, LLMs can only bullshit.
OK but can you talk to my specific claude code conversation that has 6 months of context on the mechanism you are struggling with?
Same issue as dumping a system log or a stack trace without any of your own analyses to be honest - people are going to wonder “okay. but what do you want me to do with this?”
Does anyone know how to deal with the jargon part? It is getting hard to use claude and even worse when someone sends you the direct output from claude.
But the jargon heavy very long responses are my main issue with it I guess.
I've included a link to this blog post, just for kicks.
This really isn’t the case with frontier models in 2026.
I’ve found (sadly) that every time I thought the model was hallucinating, I was in fact the one who was mistaken.
No?
Then, in the document where it writes who has to do what change, it is hallucinating. And this time you or me are not the ones who are mistaken.
If they instead read it, and distill it down to “have you checked X?” Someone with the full understanding can easily go: “Yes, X doesn’t fit because of this other reason.” within seconds. Sometimes this happens without asking a teammate. However, when I do ask I’m not asking for you to ask Claude and paste the results, I have my own tokens for that. I’m asking you because I think your knowledge will be helpful in finding the answer.
That said thankfully there's no way of measuring a good SPEC yet. If there is that will collapse the SWEs profession.
PS: Ideally set thinking to max and research mode or whatever anthropic calls it.
this is perfectly understandable?
I can tell you even at one higher level of abstraction, this is happening a lot --
A business analyst supposed to ask discovery questions.
A project manager supposed to list risks and assumptions and a timeline.
A consultant expected to outline a new proposed solution and the pros and cons and trade offs.
An architect supposee to present and defend a solution design -- and the change review board supposed to ask questions to validate it.
All of them are lobbing slop grenades at each other -- just packaged in normal / human-looking formats like excel and word and powerpoint and email -- but slop nevertheless with minimal to zero value add by the human, thanks to proliferation of copilot (among others).
We are hastening the rot.
This is productivity theater.
This is where some of the 10x engineer and AI taking jobs is happening I am afraid.
Ridiciulous I know, but I've actually seen this happen.
no reviewing 'a.i' code. talking to actual humans not 'a.i' jargons
Finally I have a word I can use for this
I'm always puzzled when I see this kind of commentary. How are people using LLMs that they find this type of thing problematic? Just do:
- "It's verbose" -> prompt "Explain briefly"
- "plausible nonsense" -> Yes, it happens, but less frequently than with older models, and arguably far less than your average human. Mitigate by prompting "Run a search to check that X, Y, Z is correct".
- "I had to lookup almost every word to make sense of this." -> Does this really happen frequently? It doesn't to me. Mitigate by prompting "Breakdown that sentence and explain each term in plain English".
I’m sorry AI purists but you have lost the argument. I know a guy who just started at my firm and he uses LLMs all day to submit his work product.
He’s getting ahead. Coworkers don’t seem to mind it.
It is time to come to grips with the fact that people are going to be “meat proxies” and be promoted over you unfortunately. Whining on HN hasn’t changed this dynamic and it never will.
If I have something Claude wrote then I will offer the LLM output. But I generally prefer to at least give the option.
I have seen conversations where it has boiled down to an exchange of A's Claude responding to B's Claude with a retort and fixes from A's.
The "problem" here is that AI is too great at providing answers, so lean into it instead of fighting it. It won't go away.
i) Prompt (Human input)
ii) Response (LLM)
iii) For (i=0;i!=n;++i) {
iv) Review/adjust (Human input)
v) Response (LLM(s) - different perspectives) }
vi) Rewrite parts that failed/I am not happy with (Human input).
vii) Optionally repeat from iii.
This tends to get me somewhere I want. For code at least. I made a document with it recently (fairly concise) and still worried I'd missed some AI slop in it. Though there is always human slop if I just made it by myself.
And yes, I've gotten '50 pages tech spec' docs sent my way from upper management -- as a 'help'....
Obvious ones like content scroll fodder. But also, there's slop everywhere. Even things like longform journalism or trade publications... these are often "slop." A string of platitudes and generalizations that superficially seem serious.
That is true in work culture too. A lot of people jump in on emails, superficially seem to be working... but contribute little of value. Now they do this, but with ai.
Yes you do apparently need a meat proxy, because either 1) you didn't tell them that you already talked to claude, or 2) you didn't already talk to claude. Either way they are forced to be your meat proxy because, apparently, you never asked an AI, or didn't tell them you asked an AI, and asking an AI is now table stakes.
Don't be a meat proxy!
Lets not be stupid about this. Do whatever works for you, and don't let some moron set the standards for your social interactions because they got the ick one morning, just because they wrote it down and put it on a website.
> Jesus. I had to lookup almost every word to make sense of this.
There's a lot to say about this, but I would just start with why are you using NATS if you don't understand it at all, and how did this become AI's fault?
Sending LLM outputs to people is worse than useless, because you don't even know what they prompted with. For all you know it was "write me a paragraph justifying my opinion".
It’s a meat to meat courtesy during this transition phase.
1. It's quick
2. It's not their problem anymore because they've replied.
No amount of hand-wringing is going to change that.
Directives want results, positive numbers and growth. How well done is and the queality of the product is something trivial.
Until february/april I was super dead serious about the quality of my apps and my code, I was super strict and always looking for excellence and quality. But people were delivering shit faster than me and someone who doesnt give a fuck about anything of this just got promoted. So now i just let opencode do my work while I watch and play dota in the background. I deliver faster and nobody has ever talked about quality of my code or the ellegance of it.
I still programming by hand in my personal projects, but in corporative projects? Fuck it, i'll let the llm do my job until it lasts and Ill watch the world burn.
but seriously, when I get a review like that, my first thought is that why would I read a summarized AI output, which I just did for 5 hours while whipping Claude to stop re-writing raft from scratch.
The times that I "Claude said:" are almost always a case where Claude gave the correct answer.
The real problem is if you paste "Claude said:" without reading what Claude said. Have seen this happen and goes something like:
Sr Engineer: "Claude said:"
Me: "But that doesn't make sense because of X"
Sr Engineer: (having actually engaged thinking effort: human) "Oh yeah, not sure why Claude said that, I think we should do Y instead"
Don't waste my time by asking me a question that:
A.) I know no more about than Claude, and
B.) You could have answered yourself using Claude
All of the questions I respond to this way fulfill both A and B. Responding with "Claude said" is both more polite than most ways to respond to such questions, and a subtle hint to the other person that they should be using the LLM first for those types of questions, rather than coming to me first.
No. Don't ask me stupid questions that Claude knows more about than me, and that you could've answered yourself with Claude.
>Seems I'd rather have your opinion if you know more than Claude.
I get a lot of questions about subjects I know considerably less about than Claude, and the subset of those which can be answered by Claude (which isn't all of them, to be clear) are the questions I respond to this way.
tl;dr: ___human-written____
____claude blob here_____
Where the idea is that humans only read human writing, and Claude is able to share context between sessions with the jargon-riddled blobs.
Trouble is, I catch people every day blatantly writing the Tl;dr with Claude or ChatGPT.